Celebrity pastors & megachurches bottom out

[Valerie]

John 15:19
King James Bible
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

According to this passage there is a certain expectation of the world rejecting Christians.

True. And we should not be shocked or surprised that the world does not grasp Christianity.

Still, I don't think "the world" thought that Jesus was judgmental or hypocritical. A lot of them probably DID think he was out of touch with reality. I would rather be criticized for being like Jesus.

Christians have always been recognized doing good deeds. There are many organizations doing good deeds that are not affiliated with Christianity. If Scripture indicates they love darkness more than light because their deeds are evil, then those who see the light but prefer evil will not come to the light of Christ just because they witness good deeds.

That quote was directed to a Pharisee and teacher of the law. Here it is in context:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Jesus is saying that Nicodemus needs to repent and turn his life around. This is not just about people we think of as "worldly sinners". Religious people can be worldly sinners too, in their own ways.

Really, I think all of us should be asking God, regularly, to reveal where we are being hypocritical or judgmental in the wrong ways. As a basic spiritual discipline. And where we are living in denial.

He also said "If they hated Me they will hate you."

That's from John 15, when Jesus is on his way to the cross. So who hated Jesus and called for him to be crucified? Wasn't it the religious leaders?

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’

Who do we see coming to Jesus and obeying his teaching in the NT? Jesus and the Pharisees attracted very different kinds of followers. I think that is still true today.

It seems abundantly clear that you and Sudsy see CA's and those who know & support them as being more like Pharisees than Jesus. I think it is because clearly neither of you have spent very much time in fellowship with them and really gotten to know them. My husband & i have seen them to be very much like Jesus. You, Sudsy & I all disobeyed Jesus in divorce & remarriage so maybe that puts us in the hypocritical category the report is talking about- but continually hinting that people here may be in denial is sad- because how many do you really know??

Sudsy Assumes Jesus was not like the Amish (or vice versa) Nor would he approve of them. But I'll tell you what, they are very well known for showing up at the country's disasters like hurricane katrina. They are involved in prison ministries. They have benefit auctions to help other people. They do hold to the scripture passage that says "come out from among them and be separate and touch not the unclean thing" yes but as far as being like Jesus they are impeccable in many ways. A lot of people don't realize how many outreaches and ministries happen around Holmes county Ohio. I heard the same judgmental attitude from Pentecostal people that we went to church with for so long against the Anabaptist making some wrong judgments because they really didn't know or understand. Yes Christians are judgemental - very much of each other

[Bootstrap]

It seems abundantly clear that you and Sudsy see CA's and those who know & support them as being more like Pharisees than Jesus.

No, I don't believe that and I wasn't saying that. I'm a direct person, you don't have to guess what I might be saying, I say it.

When I read the poll results, I think I know prominent, loud Christians who look like what people were criticizing, Christians who really do look more like Pharisees than Jesus. I don't think they would have seen Jesus the same way. The Christians I know well are not CAs. The ones the people were responding to in the polls are not CAs.

[Bootstrap]

continually hinting that people here may be in denial is sad- because how many do you really know??

Here's what I actually said:

Jesus is saying that Nicodemus needs to repent and turn his life around. This is not just about people we think of as "worldly sinners". Religious people can be worldly sinners too, in their own ways.

Really, I think all of us should be asking God, regularly, to reveal where we are being hypocritical or judgmental in the wrong ways. As a basic spiritual discipline. And where we are living in denial.

I think all human beings, including Christians, may be in denial much of the time. I think only the Holy Spirit can save us from that. I think we see that throughout the Bible. That's why I see this kind of prayer as important.

[Sudsy]

[
It seems abundantly clear that you and Sudsy see CA's and those who know & support them as being more like Pharisees than Jesus. I think it is because clearly neither of you have spent very much time in fellowship with them and really gotten to know them. My husband & i have seen them to be very much like Jesus. You, Sudsy & I all disobeyed Jesus in divorce & remarriage so maybe that puts us in the hypocritical category the report is talking about- but continually hinting that people here may be in denial is sad- because how many do you really know??

Sudsy Assumes Jesus was not like the Amish (or vice versa) Nor would he approve of them. But I'll tell you what, they are very well known for showing up at the country's disasters like hurricane katrina. They are involved in prison ministries. They have benefit auctions to help other people. They do hold to the scripture passage that says "come out from among them and be separate and touch not the unclean thing" yes but as far as being like Jesus they are impeccable in many ways. A lot of people don't realize how many outreaches and ministries happen around Holmes county Ohio. I heard the same judgmental attitude from Pentecostal people that we went to church with for so long against the Anabaptist making some wrong judgments because they really didn't know or understand. Yes Christians are judgemental - very much of each other

I think Sudsy needs to respond.

A hypocrite, to me, is someone who is putting on a false appearance of being someone they really are not, play acting. In that sense whenever we are talking about spiritual things one can dismiss a point being made by just saying that person is acting spiritual when there are the same or other areas in their life that are obviously flawed and therefore, they are a hypocrite.

When I post about something that I believe is true that doesn't mean I live according to that belief unless I am saying I do and that is in fact, not true. I can be fully convinced of what I think is true yet am working on that issue to make it true in practise. For example, I am a D&R Christian but that does not make me a hypocrite. I admit and confess my failing part in a marriage and believe God gives fresh starts to every sin, not to take advantage of what God does in forgiving, but rather to do my best to go and sin no more and be grateful for God's patience and long suffering with me. In the case of marriage we are going on some 30 years now. So, I'm just saying I don't believe this makes me a hypocrite whereas other things may.

With regard to what I said about the Amish, I was not challenging their entire beliefs and practises but saying why I would not use them as an example to follow. You call this being judgmental of them but I meant to say was that a stickler for me to not use them as model Christians and would say about other Christian groups that remove themselves from the world in the way they do it, is not what I read as Jesus way to mingle with sinners. I am not passing judgment as if this will send them to hell if they don't repent but rather a judgment in their practise as something I don't see that Jesus did. And, yes, I don't know any personally so go by what knowledge I have of them through other sources.

I have often tried to add 'imo' and where I don't it is still my opinion. I don't mind being challenged on what scripture support I have for my opinions and beliefs as that will cause me to check these out if I don't already know.

I hope this helps explain my posts and will try to make this more obvious in the future.

[Ken]

[
It seems abundantly clear that you and Sudsy see CA's and those who know & support them as being more like Pharisees than Jesus. I think it is because clearly neither of you have spent very much time in fellowship with them and really gotten to know them. My husband & i have seen them to be very much like Jesus. You, Sudsy & I all disobeyed Jesus in divorce & remarriage so maybe that puts us in the hypocritical category the report is talking about- but continually hinting that people here may be in denial is sad- because how many do you really know??

Sudsy Assumes Jesus was not like the Amish (or vice versa) Nor would he approve of them. But I'll tell you what, they are very well known for showing up at the country's disasters like hurricane katrina. They are involved in prison ministries. They have benefit auctions to help other people. They do hold to the scripture passage that says "come out from among them and be separate and touch not the unclean thing" yes but as far as being like Jesus they are impeccable in many ways. A lot of people don't realize how many outreaches and ministries happen around Holmes county Ohio. I heard the same judgmental attitude from Pentecostal people that we went to church with for so long against the Anabaptist making some wrong judgments because they really didn't know or understand. Yes Christians are judgemental - very much of each other

I think Sudsy needs to respond.

A hypocrite, to me, is someone who is putting on a false appearance of being someone they really are not, play acting. In that sense whenever we are talking about spiritual things one can dismiss a point being made by just saying that person is acting spiritual when there are the same or other areas in their life that are obviously flawed and therefore, they are a hypocrite.

When I post about something that I believe is true that doesn't mean I live according to that belief unless I am saying I do and that is in fact, not true. I can be fully convinced of what I think is true yet am working on that issue to make it true in practise. For example, I am a D&R Christian but that does not make me a hypocrite. I admit and confess my failing part in a marriage and believe God gives fresh starts to every sin, not to take advantage of what God does in forgiving, but rather to do my best to go and sin no more and be grateful for God's patience and long suffering with me. In the case of marriage we are going on some 30 years now. So, I'm just saying I don't believe this makes me a hypocrite whereas other things may.

With regard to what I said about the Amish, I was not challenging their entire beliefs and practises but saying why I would not use them as an example to follow. You call this being judgmental of them but I meant to say was that a stickler for me to not use them as model Christians and would say about other Christian groups that remove themselves from the world in the way they do it, is not what I read as Jesus way to mingle with sinners. I am not passing judgment as if this will send them to hell if they don't repent but rather a judgment in their practise as something I don't see that Jesus did. And, yes, I don't know any personally so go by what knowledge I have of them through other sources.

I have often tried to add 'imo' and where I don't it is still my opinion. I don't mind being challenged on what scripture support I have for my opinions and beliefs as that will cause me to check these out if I don't already know.

I hope this helps explain my posts and will try to make this more obvious in the future.

I don't think that is quite the precise definition of a hypocrite. A hypocrite is someone who preaches or projects one moral code but then lives by another. In other words, "do as I say, not as I do" For example, Jerry Falwell Jr., former president of Liberty University was a hypocrite for preaching and demanding one moral code of his students and faculty while living by another one entirely. Until he became enveloped in scandal and resigned in shame.

The Amish are not hypocrites unless they have secret lairs where they engage in all the "worldly" activities that they eschew in public. They simply choose to interpret the scriptures differently than say Catholics or Pentecostals. That doesn't make them hypocrites or Pharisees. Likewise, Catholics and Pentecostals aren't hypocrites and Pharisees simply because they don't live like Amish.

[Sudsy]

I don't think that is quite the precise definition of a hypocrite. A hypocrite is someone who preaches or projects one moral code but then lives by another. In other words, "do as I say, not as I do" For example, Jerry Falwell Jr., former president of Liberty University was a hypocrite for preaching and demanding one moral code of his students and faculty while living by another one entirely. Until he became enveloped in scandal and resigned in shame.

Is John Howard Yoder a hypocrite also ?

[Ken]

I don't think that is quite the precise definition of a hypocrite. A hypocrite is someone who preaches or projects one moral code but then lives by another. In other words, "do as I say, not as I do" For example, Jerry Falwell Jr., former president of Liberty University was a hypocrite for preaching and demanding one moral code of his students and faculty while living by another one entirely. Until he became enveloped in scandal and resigned in shame.

Is John Howard Yoder a hypocrite also ?

I'm not sure what if anything, he wrote about sexual morality. But he probably was a hypocrite in the general sense if he presented one persona in public life and an entirely different one in private life. Especially if he denied the accusations against him and claimed "I would never do such things" when, in fact, he continued to do them. Or if he lied to the women he assaulted and led them to believe he was someone that he was not, and weaponized Christianity to escape the consequences of his actions.