Celebrity pastors & megachurches bottom out

[Ken]

The top 4 criticisms of Christians are:

1. Judgemental
2. Hypocritical
3. Out of touch with reality
4. Too involved in politics

None of these are things that characterized Jesus.

In point of fact, they are all things that Jesus criticized directly

[RZehr]

For both non-believers and people of other faiths, the "hypocrisy of religious people" is the biggest factor causing them to doubt Christian beliefs.

The top 4 criticisms of Christians are:

1. Judgemental
2. Hypocritical
3. Out of touch with reality
4. Too involved in politics

None of these are things that characterized Jesus.

As Christians, we generally do not see ourselves this way. I wonder if we have a little denial going on sometimes, though ...

I'm not too worried about the worlds opinion of us. I read in an old book one time, something along the lines of "woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

Christianity is judgmental. That is not a bad thing either. We know good from bad, and that is good judgement. What the world calls judgement today, is merely any criticism or preaching or teaching or speaking against sin.

Hypocritical - hypocritical according to what? According the worlds twisted sense of right and wrong? According to the worlds favorite verse taken out of context, "judge not"? To the extent that we are hypocritical according to Biblical teachings, that is bad. But the world might view some things that are aligned perfectly with Jesus teachings, as hypocritical. Where this is the case, so be it.

I think it is the world that is really out of touch with reality.

Too involved in politics? Huh. I wonder why they would say that. I would like to see evil men have less involvement in politics because they are diametrically opposed to my values. Is that why they want Christians out of politics? Because they see the values conflict? I doubt that they want Christians out of politic in order to keep Christianity genuine. While I think Christians should not vote or run for office etc., I'm not buying into the idea that a Godless politic will somehow bring about utopia.


Are these 4 matters applicable to American Christianity? Probably so. I just wouldn't be going to the sinful world to take input on how we can tickle their ears in a more pleasing manner. We are opposed to them. It would be alarming if they said good things about us.
And notably, the question was leading, specifically asking them for the reason for them to doubt Christianity. A question like that is going to generate criticism.

[MaxPC]

For both non-believers and people of other faiths, the "hypocrisy of religious people" is the biggest factor causing them to doubt Christian beliefs.

The top 4 criticisms of Christians are:

1. Judgemental
2. Hypocritical
3. Out of touch with reality
4. Too involved in politics

None of these are things that characterized Jesus.

As Christians, we generally do not see ourselves this way. I wonder if we have a little denial going on sometimes, though ...

I'm not too worried about the worlds opinion of us. I read in an old book one time, something along the lines of "woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

Christianity is judgmental. That is not a bad thing either. We know good from bad, and that is good judgement. What the world calls judgement today, is merely any criticism or preaching or teaching or speaking against sin.

Hypocritical - hypocritical according to what? According the worlds twisted sense of right and wrong? According to the worlds favorite verse taken out of context, "judge not"? To the extent that we are hypocritical according to Biblical teachings, that is bad. But the world might view some things that are aligned perfectly with Jesus teachings, as hypocritical. Where this is the case, so be it.

I think it is the world that is really out of touch with reality.

Too involved in politics? Huh. I wonder why they would say that. I would like to see evil men have less involvement in politics because they are diametrically opposed to my values. Is that why they want Christians out of politics? Because they see the values conflict? I doubt that they want Christians out of politic in order to keep Christianity genuine. While I think Christians should not vote or run for office etc., I'm not buying into the idea that a Godless politic will somehow bring about utopia.


Are these 4 matters applicable to American Christianity? Probably so. I just wouldn't be going to the sinful world to take input on how we can tickle their ears in a more pleasing manner. We are opposed to them. It would be alarming if they said good things about us.
And notably, the question was leading, specifically asking them for the reason for them to doubt Christianity. A question like that is going to generate criticism.

Indeed and amen.

[Bootstrap]

For both non-believers and people of other faiths, the "hypocrisy of religious people" is the biggest factor causing them to doubt Christian beliefs.

The top 4 criticisms of Christians are:

1. Judgemental
2. Hypocritical
3. Out of touch with reality
4. Too involved in politics

None of these are things that characterized Jesus.

As Christians, we generally do not see ourselves this way. I wonder if we have a little denial going on sometimes, though ...

I'm not too worried about the worlds opinion of us.

I agree - that's not the opinion that counts. But if we are going to discuss the Bama study, I think it's best to start by looking at what it actually said, particularly it's main conclusions. It's not mostly about celebrity pastors and megachurches.

I read in an old book one time, something along the lines of "woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

In that verse, Jesus was talking about Jews. He was telling us to beware when fine religious people speak well of us, because they spoke well of the false prophets.

Christianity is judgmental. That is not a bad thing either. We know good from bad, and that is good judgement. What the world calls judgement today, is merely any criticism or preaching or teaching or speaking against sin.

Christianity is discerning. Christians do need to speak and preach against sin, but we need to do it the way Jesus did, not the way the Pharisees did. Christianity does not condemn. Jesus told us not to judge:

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

And that's the opinion that counts. If the world is wrong about us, that's not a problem. But sometimes the world is right about us.

Hypocritical - hypocritical according to what? According the worlds twisted sense of right and wrong? According to the worlds favorite verse taken out of context, "judge not"? To the extent that we are hypocritical according to Biblical teachings, that is bad. But the world might view some things that are aligned perfectly with Jesus teachings, as hypocritical. Where this is the case, so be it.

Just so. But sometimes the world does seem to accurately spot things that Jesus would call hypocrisy.

I think it is the world that is really out of touch with reality.

But I wouldn't say that all Christians are in touch with reality. Would you? Again, the solution is not to adopt the world's standards, but to do a gut check to make sure that we're not the ones in denial.

Too involved in politics? Huh. I wonder why they would say that. I would like to see evil men have less involvement in politics because they are diametrically opposed to my values. Is that why they want Christians out of politics? Because they see the values conflict? I doubt that they want Christians out of politic in order to keep Christianity genuine. While I think Christians should not vote or run for office etc., I'm not buying into the idea that a Godless politic will somehow bring about utopia.

Perhaps because our political involvement has often driven hypocrisy and changed what Christianity is primarily about? To many non-Christians, Donald Trump has become the face of modern Christianity. Political Christianity does not look like Jesus.

Are these 4 matters applicable to American Christianity? Probably so. I just wouldn't be going to the sinful world to take input on how we can tickle their ears in a more pleasing manner. We are opposed to them. It would be alarming if they said good things about us.
And notably, the question was leading, specifically asking them for the reason for them to doubt Christianity. A question like that is going to generate criticism.

Well, I agree with your conclusion. We should not seek to "tickle the ears" of either the world or of many religious people. We should seek to be devoted to God and brother and neighbor, use Jesus as our standard, seek first the Kingdom of God.

But sometimes I think the people who were drawn to Jesus are less likely to be drawn to modern American Christianity. And we should be discerning about that.

[Ken]

For both non-believers and people of other faiths, the "hypocrisy of religious people" is the biggest factor causing them to doubt Christian beliefs.

The top 4 criticisms of Christians are:

1. Judgemental
2. Hypocritical
3. Out of touch with reality
4. Too involved in politics

None of these are things that characterized Jesus.

As Christians, we generally do not see ourselves this way. I wonder if we have a little denial going on sometimes, though ...

I'm not too worried about the worlds opinion of us. I read in an old book one time, something along the lines of "woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

Christianity is judgmental. That is not a bad thing either. We know good from bad, and that is good judgement. What the world calls judgement today, is merely any criticism or preaching or teaching or speaking against sin.

Hypocritical - hypocritical according to what? According the worlds twisted sense of right and wrong? According to the worlds favorite verse taken out of context, "judge not"? To the extent that we are hypocritical according to Biblical teachings, that is bad. But the world might view some things that are aligned perfectly with Jesus teachings, as hypocritical. Where this is the case, so be it.

I think it is the world that is really out of touch with reality.

Too involved in politics? Huh. I wonder why they would say that. I would like to see evil men have less involvement in politics because they are diametrically opposed to my values. Is that why they want Christians out of politics? Because they see the values conflict? I doubt that they want Christians out of politic in order to keep Christianity genuine. While I think Christians should not vote or run for office etc., I'm not buying into the idea that a Godless politic will somehow bring about utopia.


Are these 4 matters applicable to American Christianity? Probably so. I just wouldn't be going to the sinful world to take input on how we can tickle their ears in a more pleasing manner. We are opposed to them. It would be alarming if they said good things about us.
And notably, the question was leading, specifically asking them for the reason for them to doubt Christianity. A question like that is going to generate criticism.

Well, you probably SHOULD be interested in the world's opinion of Christianity if you think it is actually important to spread the message of Christianity around the world.

As for being too judgmental, hypocritical, and political? What you or I think doesn't really matter. The important question is WHY others think that. At least if you are interested in changing people's opinions.

[RZehr]

What matters is what God thinks.

I actually don’t think much of American Christianity either - so myself and the non-Christians share that opinion.
And I’m not interested in getting non-Christians to change their opinions of them, and to start thinking highly of these celebrities and mega churches.

I’d rather have non-Christians see real Christianity.

I think these polls are more effective in driving churches to be more like the world, and are used by the churches to find ways to be more palatable to the world, than they are anything else. I don’t at all find these polls to be particularly instructive or helpful in being a better, or more effective Christian.

I suspect they are funded by people who would like to see a weak and toothless Christian religion. Let’s use the Bible to determine matters, not polls of non-believers.

[Bootstrap]

I’d rather have non-Christians see real Christianity.

Amen.

I think these polls are more effective in driving churches to be more like the world, and are used by the churches to find ways to be more palatable to the world, than they are anything else. I don’t at all find these polls to be particularly instructive or helpful in being a better, or more effective Christian.

I was uncomfortable referring to the polls as though they were mostly talking about just celebrity pastors and megachurches. I didn't start this thread, but if we are going to discuss the polls, I think we should look at the polls themselves and see what they say.

I suspect they are funded by people who would like to see a weak and toothless Christian religion.

I doubt that, actually. The Barna group is evangelical Christians who seem to want the church to prosper. But I don't know them at all well.

Let’s use the Bible to determine matters, not polls of non-believers.

Amen.

[Valerie]

The top 4 criticisms of Christians are:

1. Judgemental
2. Hypocritical
3. Out of touch with reality
4. Too involved in politics

None of these are things that characterized Jesus.

In point of fact, they are all things that Jesus criticized directly

Of course they would say these things, have heard it all my life (except #4)

John 3:19
Who is the accuser of the brethren?
King James Bible
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[Sudsy]

What I notice is that scripture also says if we shine the light we have through good deeds that some will be drawn to that light. When I volunteered to help the Salvation Army with kettle collections at Christmas time, I never once heard criticism of the SA but often heard from war veterans and other people of their good deeds. We also gave out their magazine called 'The War Cry' and they respectfully received them. The Gospel message and conversion stories were there to read.

I believe when we are truly shining our light that there will be those that are drawn to this light but I think religion often hides it under a bushel. Those who rejected the light in Jesus time on earth were mainly religious people who were not big into doing good deeds but rather big on attracting attention to themselves by their religious practises.

[Valerie]

What I notice is that scripture also says if we shine the light we have through good deeds that some will be drawn to that light. When I volunteered to help the Salvation Army with kettle collections at Christmas time, I never once heard criticism of the SA but often heard from war veterans and other people of their good deeds. We also gave out their magazine called 'The War Cry' and they respectfully received them. The Gospel message and conversion stories were there to read.

I believe when we are truly shining our light that there will be those that are drawn to this light but I think religion often hides it under a bushel. Those who rejected the light in Jesus time on earth were mainly religious people who were not big into doing good deeds but rather big on attracting attention to themselves by their religious practises.

John 15:19
King James Bible
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

According to this passage there is a certain expectation of the world rejecting Christians. Christians have always been recognized doing good deeds. There are many organizations doing good deeds that are not affiliated with Christianity. If Scripture indicates they love darkness more than light because their deeds are evil, then those who see the light but prefer evil will not come to the light of Christ just because they witness good deeds. Jesus was perfect in every way but it was not just religious that rejected Him. He also said "If they hated Me they will hate you." "They" would include all kinds of people. Thus the broad and narrow way.

Actually, these days what Im seeing on social media is a live and admiration for Amish from outsiders and have read a lot of comments saying they are the only real Christians