Disciplined Church Life

[Soloist]

Interesting observation, Ken. Pentecostalism is easily the most dominant strain of Christianity in Latin America today.

Do you not consider Catholic's Christian?

Do you?
Or are we just playing word games by saying they just aren’t kingdom Christians?

[cooper]

Is there a connection between a disciplined culture and one that values keeping one's word? To me, one of the most fundamentally revolting things about a person is when they clearly place no value on keeping promises. Maybe it's because my business basically revolves around keeping promises, and when I have a vendor or employee or some other business partner who doesn't deliver on their promises, it breaks my ability to keep mine. There are some people who just don't seem to care about not doing what they said they would do, by the time they said they would do it. I can hardly deal with it.

Perhaps one of the values of a college degree is that it signals a person's level of discipline. It's not a perfect signal, and colleges are dumbing down their requirements. However, in college there's often a consequence if you miss an assignment deadline.

I think the lack of loyalty and not keeping one's word is a generational shift. And conservative Anabaptists aren't exempt - the younger generation much more readily change church affiliations. In the 1960s, the conservatives very reluctantly left the Old Mennonite Church. Today, conservative Mennonites change affiliations over much smaller matters with less reluctance. The old system had it's flaws, such as more likely to tolerate abuse.

[Neto]

re: Pentecostalism in "Latin America":
(I put Latin America in quotes because some people seem to think that that denotes only Spanish speaking nations, excluding Brazil and a couple of other small South American nations.)

Anyway, that aside. Pentecostals in Brazil are the most conservative church groups (in dress, Sunday activities, etc.). (In addition to some very conservative Baptists, but they do not seem as well integrated culturally, probably being more recent start-ups.)

It is Pentecostals whose women have uncut hair. It is the more extreme Pentecostals who not only do not allow the playing of sports (i.e., foteball) on Sundays, but actually not at all. And that's a VERY big deal for Brazilians.

But to the main topic - The Disciplined Life (Well, I changed it slightly, so maybe this is a different topic.):
PERSONAL discipline. This was the dividing factor in the early anabaptist period, certainly in the Dutch baptism minded people. The State churches recognized a LACK of personal moral discipline in their own congregations, excusing this by an appeal to "salvation by Faith Alone", and the idea of the "invisible Church", or "The Remnant" idea exemplified in the OT period. The anabaptists, on the other hand, insisted that the goal of every true believer (and thus of every true congregation) was a "Pure Church", not an invisible or hidden one, but one readily apparent at the local level. I believe that it was Hubmaier who, in response to accusations of having made the prideful claim of having reached "sinless perfection", pointed to the difference between "living in sin" and "falling into sin", the latter being a temporary, although still very unfortunate state for one who is living the "Disciplined Life". (Our former pastor used to put it this way - "Keeping short accounts with sin".)

I do not think that this personal Disciplined Life requires a whole host of congregational rules. Or at least, it SHOULD NOT. (I'm still adjusting to this new idea, so I'm open to being convinced otherwise, that is, back to my former position of wanting to see a full set of "guidelines". Actually, I'm not really sure I am fully convinced either way. Maybe I just threw this statement out there to garner a response. I guess I really think that we can have both, a full expression of conduct guidelines AND a personal motivation and conviction in the heart-mind of each member of the congregation. But the bare rules do nothing to achieve the pure church.)

[Bootstrap]

This reminded me of an expression I have heard various times, usually from conservative Anabaptists, that the culture represents a "disciplined church life." I'd enjoy some discussions about this idea.

How are you using the word "disciplined" here?

When I hear the word, I think of "the disciplines" of prayer, Scripture study, fasting, fellowship, etc.

Richard Foster has his own list in The Celebration of Discipline: prayer, fasting, simplicity, solitude, confession, and celebration.

The lists of disciplines differ. But I think of discipline as applying yourself day by day to a way of life, with a set of disciplines, with a goal in mind.

In what way is conservative Anabaptist church life, as opposed to the church life of other Christians groups, disciplined? What are the pros and cons?

In what way is the church life of non-CA Christian churches less disciplined or even undisciplined, and what are the pros and cons?

I have no idea how to compare.

There are certainly non-CA Christians and churches that take prayer and Bible study and serving our neighbors very seriously. I'm not sure that plain dress predicts this, one way or another. But I haven't ever been a member of a CA church, and I don't think I'm in any position to make this kind of comparison.

[Bootstrap]

I do not think that this personal Disciplined Life requires a whole host of congregational rules.

I was part of an intentional community that had an enormous number of congregational rules, and there was strong pressure to conform. It was not CA, it was not Mennonite. In that setting, I did not have the feeling that it led to spiritual maturity.

But I have talked to people in religious orders who really did seem to reach spiritual maturity in a setting where they conformed to the same way of life in just about every way. So I think it depends on other things. But I don't think that conforming to rules is the same thing as discipline.

[Ernie]

Interesting observation, Ken. Pentecostalism is easily the most dominant strain of Christianity in Latin America today.

Do you not consider Catholic's Christian?

Do you? Or are we just playing word games by saying they just aren’t kingdom Christians?

As I understand it, the largest percentage of growth in the Pentecostal movement in Latin America has to do with "prosperity theology".

As of 2020, 58% identified as Catholic and 23% identified as some sort of Protestant. Pentecostals make up about 75% of Protestants.
I don't see a lot of spiritual difference between Catholics and Pentecostal Prosperity folks. I would indentify both groups as professing Christians.

[Soloist]

Do you not consider Catholic's Christian?

Do you? Or are we just playing word games by saying they just aren’t kingdom Christians?

As I understand it, the largest percentage of growth in the Pentecostal movement in Latin America has to do with "prosperity theology".

As of 2020, 58% identified as Catholic and 23% identified as some sort of Protestant. Pentecostals make up about 75% of Protestants.
I don't see a lot of spiritual difference between Catholics and Pentecostal Prosperity folks. I would indentify both groups as professing Christians.

Thanks, I would agree with you.

[HondurasKeiser]

Interesting observation, Ken. Pentecostalism is easily the most dominant strain of Christianity in Latin America today.

Do you not consider Catholic's Christian?

Yes of course. The Catholic Church in Latin America generally, and Central America especially, is hemorrhaging members and no longer the majority form of Christianity that is practiced. It still has a residual effect in the culture and the elites tend to be Catholic but even that is diminishing. The Catholic influence is less and less felt/understood and the more and more elites are either atheists or decamping to health and wealth Evangelico churches.

[Ken]

Interesting observation, Ken. Pentecostalism is easily the most dominant strain of Christianity in Latin America today.

Do you not consider Catholic's Christian?

Yes of course. The Catholic Church in Latin America generally, and Central America especially, is hemorrhaging members and no longer the majority form of Christianity that is practiced. It still has a residual effect in the culture and the elites tend to be Catholic but even that is diminishing. The Catholic influence is less and less felt/understood and the more and more elites are either atheists or decamping to health and wealth Evangelico churches.

I would put it slightly differently.

Catholicism is the historic default form of Christianity in Latin America but even prior to the rise of protestant denominations in the 1970s and 1980s, it was never really the majority religion except nominally and culturally. For example, when I worked in Guatemala in the 1980s, someone doing a survey of my town would have found the population to be about 90% Catholic. However I seriously doubt that more than about 5% actually attended mass on any sort of regular basis. Especially men. Sure they would do the nominally Catholic things like christen their babies and maybe show up for Easter and Christmas mass (if their wife made them and they weren't out drinking) but that was about it. In a so-called Catholic town of about 10,000 people I could walk by the church on Sunday morning and maybe 50-100 people might be there for mass and mostly older women. Catholicism was basically just part of the background landscape and nothing more. People might have crucifixes on their walls, or little portraits of the pope. And they would celebrate things like saints days. But again, that was just background landscape, sort of like knowing that your astrological sign.

So when Pentecostals and other protestant denominations rolled in they were evangelizing to a population that was largely not religious in any meaningful way except culturally. I'm not saying that there were NO devout and practicing Catholics. Obviously there were. But they were nowhere close to a majority. The fact that the Catholic church basically just rotated in foreign priests with no connection to the community didn't help. During my time there the Catholic priest was and old guy from upstate New York whom I never ever saw out on the streets or mingling in the community except during Semana Santa and barely then.

So large numbers of folks in Latin America who are becoming Pentecostal or Baptist or whatever, aren't really "converting" in any meaningful way. They are becoming religious when previously they weren't except in name only.

[Ernie]

So large numbers of folks in Latin America who are becoming Pentecostal or Baptist or whatever, aren't really "converting" in any meaningful way. They are becoming religious when previously they weren't except in name only.

That is helpful info.