Disciplined Church Life

[mike]

I wonder what the unsaved world would say, in a poll, what they believe Anabaptists emphasize ?

RULES would be my guess.

This reminded me of an expression I have heard various times, usually from conservative Anabaptists, that the culture represents a "disciplined church life." I'd enjoy some discussions about this idea.

In what way is conservative Anabaptist church life, as opposed to the church life of other Christians groups, disciplined? What are the pros and cons?

In what way is the church life of non-CA Christian churches less disciplined or even undisciplined, and what are the pros and cons?

[Ernie]

Having a disciplined church allows us to trust other churches who are also disciplined.
While there are indeed perverts in some disciplined churches, and we occasionally get burnt, we pretty much trust anyone who comes from a church that we believe is disciplined.
I can show up at a CA church anywhere in the world that has a good reputation for discipline, and assume that it is fine for my children to hang out with their children. If there is anyone in the church that is suspect, other members in the church will let you know.
This happened to us a few years ago. We were going to let our children stay with a "stranger" family. But just before we finalized the details, I made a phone call, and checked with someone from that church about the wisdom of this. The person I checked with said, "I would not have our children stay overnight at that place. I won't say more." That was all I needed to know.
Being disciplined isn't the only thing I look for though. A church needs to be accountable to other churches, and they also need to have some love and compassion before I will feel good about the church.

Cons: Disciplined churches can raise the bar too high (for folks from outside the culture) on matters that really shouldn't be part of the discipline. Disciplined churches can also frustrate the rising generation if they draw lines on the wrong things or on certain things but not others. Can you image what a CA church would look like if they had as many rules on luxurious living and goofing away ones time as what they do on things like cars and clothes?

[barnhart]

I have a cousin who was living with a woman, not his wife, and I was taken back to learn she was a Sunday school teacher in a local baptist church. I don't know how common or uncommon this is, but I wouldn't expect to find that in an Anabaptist church. Not so much because we are more holy, but because there are clear lifestyle obligations.

[Ernie]

I have a cousin who was living with a woman, not his wife, and I was taken back to learn she was a Sunday school teacher in a local baptist church. I don't know how common or uncommon this is, but I wouldn't expect to find that in an Anabaptist church. Not so much because we are more holy, but because there are clear lifestyle obligations.

Yes, there are very few children in CA homes who go to bed wondering whether one of their parents will leave them one day. There are very few spouses who go shopping or go to work who worry that when they return home, they may find a note on the table from their spouse, saying that the marriage is over.

[Ken]

Honestly, I think some of it is also cultural and not simply a specific interpretation of Scripture.

For example, compare the national character of Germany or Switzerland to Italy or Spain. Mennonites have probably done a lot better job of maintaining their Swiss/German heritage than just about any other immigrant group. We had a German exchange student for a year and she told us about public pool in her town where there was a line painted down the middle of the locker room floor and hallway to the pool. Wet feet on one side of the line, dry feet on the other. And that everyone always just obeys without question. The notion that Americans would follow such rules is laughable.

I'm not comparing pools to church discipline. Just pointing out that most ethnic Mennonites come from a ethnic culture where quiet obedient discipline is the norm.

By contrast, I think a lot of Pentecostals come from an Appalachian culture that has deep Scots-Irish roots. And, of course, Black. Poor southern and Appalachian Scots-Irish were the dominant waves of poor migrants that moved west to Los Angeles after the Civil War and turn of the century, where Pentecostalism got its start. That is a much more loud and chaotic culture. And the same Appalachian culture is where it later spread most readily. That probably reflects to some extent the different nature of Pentecostal churches...noisy, chaotic, etc.

[HondurasKeiser]

Honestly, I think some of it is also cultural and not simply a specific interpretation of Scripture.

For example, compare the national character of Germany or Switzerland to Italy or Spain. Mennonites have probably done a lot better job of maintaining their Swiss/German heritage than just about any other immigrant group. We had a German exchange student for a year and she told us about public pool in her town where there was a line painted down the middle of the locker room floor and hallway to the pool. Wet feet on one side of the line, dry feet on the other. And that everyone always just obeys without question. The notion that Americans would follow such rules is laughable.

I'm not comparing pools to church discipline. Just pointing out that most ethnic Mennonites come from a ethnic culture where quiet obedient discipline is the norm.

By contrast, I think a lot of Pentecostals come from an Appalachian culture that has deep Scots-Irish roots. And, of course, Black. Poor southern and Appalachian Scots-Irish were the dominant waves of poor migrants that moved west to Los Angeles after the Civil War and turn of the century, where Pentecostalism got its start. That is a much more loud and chaotic culture. And the same Appalachian culture is where it later spread most readily. That probably reflects to some extent the different nature of Pentecostal churches...noisy, chaotic, etc.

Interesting observation, Ken. Pentecostalism is easily the most dominant strain of Christianity in Latin America today. That style of church seems to map well on to a Latin culture that is itself undisciplined. Obviously there are individual exceptions but when I encounter them here they strike me as somehow denatured in their “Latin-ness”. What’s more, most American missionaries here, irrespective of their church background, are almost always seen as more disciplined in their personal lives than the majority of their fellow church members.

[mike]

Honestly, I think some of it is also cultural and not simply a specific interpretation of Scripture.

For example, compare the national character of Germany or Switzerland to Italy or Spain. Mennonites have probably done a lot better job of maintaining their Swiss/German heritage than just about any other immigrant group. We had a German exchange student for a year and she told us about public pool in her town where there was a line painted down the middle of the locker room floor and hallway to the pool. Wet feet on one side of the line, dry feet on the other. And that everyone always just obeys without question. The notion that Americans would follow such rules is laughable.

Interesting. You only have to read the history of Germany before and during WW2 to understand that even when the German people had misgivings about their leadership, their impulse was still to follow to the death.

In terms of church life, it's not hard to understand that CAs seem to have a stricter level of discipline than most other churches, but if this is a part of the "national character" of Germany that followed us, then wouldn't it make sense that rigid discipline would affect not only church life but other areas? Do conservative Anabaptists really live a more disciplined lifestyle in general? There are plenty of Anabaptists who participate in a disciplined church life but in other ways are fairly undisciplined.

[mike]

Is there a connection between a disciplined culture and one that values keeping one's word? To me, one of the most fundamentally revolting things about a person is when they clearly place no value on keeping promises. Maybe it's because my business basically revolves around keeping promises, and when I have a vendor or employee or some other business partner who doesn't deliver on their promises, it breaks my ability to keep mine. There are some people who just don't seem to care about not doing what they said they would do, by the time they said they would do it. I can hardly deal with it.

[Josh]

Honestly, I think some of it is also cultural and not simply a specific interpretation of Scripture.

For example, compare the national character of Germany or Switzerland to Italy or Spain. Mennonites have probably done a lot better job of maintaining their Swiss/German heritage than just about any other immigrant group. We had a German exchange student for a year and she told us about public pool in her town where there was a line painted down the middle of the locker room floor and hallway to the pool. Wet feet on one side of the line, dry feet on the other. And that everyone always just obeys without question. The notion that Americans would follow such rules is laughable.

Then compare the national culture of Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, and the Ukraine, which is what Russian Mennonites are composed of; Russian Mennonites have maintained strong church discipline despite no Swiss (and no German, either) cultural background.

By contrast, I think a lot of Pentecostals come from an Appalachian culture that has deep Scots-Irish roots. And, of course, Black. Poor southern and Appalachian Scots-Irish were the dominant waves of poor migrants that moved west to Los Angeles after the Civil War and turn of the century, where Pentecostalism got its start. That is a much more loud and chaotic culture. And the same Appalachian culture is where it later spread most readily. That probably reflects to some extent the different nature of Pentecostal churches...noisy, chaotic, etc.

My own cultural background is mostly Appalachian, Celtic-Australian, and Scots-Irish. I’m not sure describing it as a “loud and chaotic” culture is necessarily correct, but it is true that it is one that has experienced multiple waves of grinding poverty.

I don’t think a cultural background of living in 8’ trailers with the floor falling out, a giant pile of empty Milwaukee’s Best cans, and multiple disabled vehicles and lawn mowers excuses an undisciplined church life. Sin is still sin and there should be no excuses for it.

The strongest Pentecostal denominations out there are the Oneness groups which have a strong emphasis on holiness, UPCI, PAW, ALJC, and so on. There are both white and black churches in these groups, and mixed ones too, which are becoming more common.

They also have a very strong church discipline. Things like drinking, smoking, women wearing worldly hairstyles and cutting their hair short, men wearing long worldly hairstyles, immodest clothing, cheating on one’s spouse, and so on are not acceptable and are dealt with, albeit very differently than how plain Anabaptists do. So no, I don’t agree that Pentecostal groups are “noisy and chaotic”; they simply have a different order to them.

[Ernie]

Interesting observation, Ken. Pentecostalism is easily the most dominant strain of Christianity in Latin America today.

Do you not consider Catholic's Christian?