As Christians, what kind of government do we fear?

[Falco Underhill]

I fear all governments.

How did you come about this approach, do you find a biblical basis for it.

Seems like the sword is a good metaphor for what it means to fear government.

I fear the sword not because of what it is, but because of how it might be used (as history continues to bear witness). Used justly and prudently it can help contain evil in a fallen world (Rom 13), but used unjustly and malevolently it becomes a beastly evil of its own (Rev 13).

The use of the sword, like the exercise of governmental coercive power, is outside of the will of Christ for his followers. However, as an observer, I regard governments like I regard the sword - hopeful that they will use their power justly, fearful that they will abuse it, and always watching with a wary eye.

Good to see you back, Dan!

[barnhart]

Dan, that is the sort of fear I can support.

[Bootstrap]

I don't have the time to comment Bootstrap's ideas in detail. Only some general objections:
1. "Authoritarian" was defined as an attribute of persons - I don't think it is well-defined as an attribute of states (rather a smear word).

Look up "authoritarian regimes". For a list of authoritarian regimes, look here:

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/nati ... sit/scores

2. Yes, West Germany was very "free" for a while. But only as long as they had to define themselves as a better alternative against Nazism and Communism. Those times are long ago.

Fact is, you can say that out loud or on social media all you want. You couldn't do that in East Germany. Or in Nazi Germany. You will not be put in prison for expressing your views. Neither will journalists. There are elections, the votes are counted fairly. You can safely live out your faith without hiding. So can others.

That's a whole lot of freedom.

(Also, as I hope to prove in the book I am writing: peace is impossible without people granting each other freedom).

As for the question: The governments I fear most are the Puritan governments - politicians which suddenly discover that there is a "sin" which they have to exterminate at all costs. (Mostly incited and accompanied by "movements".)

I agree. If a politician promises to destroy your enemies, that's the politician I fear most.

America has very close elections. When a politician wins by a few points, that's not a time to radically remake America. We need a country where all Americans can live safely and in peace. The culture wars and politically-fueled hatred and fear are at odds with that.

If Christians simply focus on living out the Kingdom of God and avoid political narratives entirely, that's good. But if we do engage in political narratives, we still have to do so with the Kingdom of God as our primary identity and worldview.

[Bootstrap]

Seems like the sword is a good metaphor for what it means to fear government.

I fear the sword not because of what it is, but because of how it might be used (as history continues to bear witness). Used justly and prudently it can help contain evil in a fallen world (Rom 13), but used unjustly and malevolently it becomes a beastly evil (Rev 13).

I agree. And there is a DIFFERENCE between what I saw in East Germany or Russia and what I saw in West Germany or the United States. A DIFFERENCE between America under slavery or Russia before the emancipation of the serfs and modern America. A DIFFERENCE between the governments shown in the Martyr's Mirror and modern America.

And a lot of political rhetoric that riles people up by saying there is no difference. I don't think that leads to wisdom or truth. And that kind of conspiracy theory was fuel for most of the abuses of regimes mentioned in the paragraph above, stirring up hatred and fear in order to justify extremism and authoritarianism. That's what scares me. Stirring up hatred and fear in order to justify using the sword in unjust ways, without regard for truth.

The use of the sword, like the exercise of governmental coercive power, is outside of the will of Christ for his followers. However, as an observer, I regard governments like I regard the sword - hopeful that they will use their power justly, fearful that they will abuse it, and always watching with a wary eye.

If we focus on being the Kingdom of God, being salt and light, I think we wind up in the right place without necessarily getting all wrapped up in politics.

But if we quickly baptize the political talking points of a faction that stirs up hatred and fear, pretending those talking points are Christian or that people who disagree do not belong to the Kingdom of God, that's a pretty good sign that we aren't following what Jesus said and did.

Christianity is about what Jesus said and did. The Kingdom of God is central to that. Loving God first and neighbor second, serving others, living in holiness, reaching out to others as salt and light ... that's where our heart should be.

[PetrChelcicky]

For the dangers of a Puritan government I have just found a good example:
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_ ... e_hysteria"
Only that wikipedia doesn't look into the political side of it. For that I refer to:
https://www.unz.com/proberts/victims-of ... -pardoned/

Roberts emphasizes the political roots. The Child Protection Services Act was passed by Congress in 1980. " Once the act was passed and CPS offices with authority to seize children from parents were set up all over the US, the bureaucracy needed child abusers in order to justify its existence. As few abusers materialized, the bureaucracy was desperate for cases and turned the most absurd statement from the youngest child and the bruise from childhood play into proof of abuse."

[Ken]

For the dangers of a Puritan government I have just found a good example:
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_ ... e_hysteria"
Only that wikipedia doesn't look into the political side of it. For that I refer to:
https://www.unz.com/proberts/victims-of ... -pardoned/

Roberts emphasizes the political roots. The Child Protection Services Act was passed by Congress in 1980. " Once the act was passed and CPS offices with authority to seize children from parents were set up all over the US, the bureaucracy needed child abusers in order to justify its existence. As few abusers materialized, the bureaucracy was desperate for cases and turned the most absurd statement from the youngest child and the bruise from childhood play into proof of abuse."

What makes Robert's whole argument dubious is that there is no "Child Protective Services Act of 1980. That seems to be something he just made up out of thing air. And local CPS office have been around for decades before 1980. Probably dating back to the 19th Century in some form or another.

Go ahead, look it up. No such act was ever introduced or passed by Congress in 1980 or any other year for that matter: https://www.congress.gov/

So the whole article you cited is a farce.

[PetrChelcicky]

Hello Ken,
that is really embarassing for me. I (still) believe that I am not totally credulous, and of course before I write such a text I argue with myself about "Can I rely on this?" But in this case I thought: Even if Roberts has his biases and is an old man, probably with a bad memory, here he relates to his own articles he himself has written twenty years ago and he probably can look at them, so he will be correct about the facts.
I have sent him a letter and asked for more information.

[temporal1]

.. and of course before I write such a text I argue with myself about "Can I rely on this?"
But in this case I thought: Even if Roberts has his biases and is an old man, probably with a bad memory, here he relates to his own articles he himself has written twenty years ago and he probably can look at them, so he will be correct about the facts.

I have sent him a letter and asked for more information.

i hope he responds and you update here. much appreciated. your integrity is obvious in your writings.
possibly he was referring to 1984, or 1989? https://www.congress.gov/bill/98th-cong ... -bill/3635 .. i anticipate Roberts won’t have a problem clarifying. there are numerous Child Protection Services Act(s) over decades. all imperfect. sometimes with devastating results to children, families, caretakers.

[Sudsy]

My view regarding the title of this thread - none of them.

I believe we are to pray for our governing leaders and whatever happens God is allowing it to occur so I can rest and fear not. To me, it is a matter of trusting God and not allow fear in my life and He will provide a peace that passes all understanding. Scripture is filled with 'fear not' s. God knows what He is doing and allowing so I need not live in any fear. The choice is mine.

[PetrChelcicky]

Bootstrap,
you seem convinced that in former West Germany everything is just like twenty years ago.
The New York Times begs to differ. Following them, "Germany has gone further than any other Western democracy to prosecute individuals for what they say online, testing the limits of free speech on the internet".
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/tech ... rrest.html (Sept.23, 2022)
All this of course "battling right wing extremism" - even if someone must not be a rightwing extremist only because he calls the Berlin Senator "a penis" because of the Senator's double standards w.r.t. Covid restrictions ("they are for thee, but not for me").
To my chagrin I must say that most German oppositional media thought this NYT article was a critique of German overreach. Only the Americans (for instance "Frontpage") understood that it was meant as a recommendation for the Biden government to follow the German model.