Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[ohio jones]

thus, as a U.S. citizen (more+more being labeled “white U.S. citizen”) i would find it logical to refer to these folks as: Russian-Ukrainian civilians.

Yes, that would be more neutral terminology.

[temporal1]

thus, as a U.S. citizen (more+more being labeled “white U.S. citizen”) i would find it logical to refer to these folks as: Russian-Ukrainian civilians.

Yes, that would be more neutral terminology.

i never know.

[Bootstrap]

thus, as a U.S. citizen (more+more being labeled “white U.S. citizen”) i would find it logical to refer to these folks as: Russian-Ukrainian civilians.

Yes, that would be more neutral terminology.

Here's what people in the Donbas would like to be called. This gives the results of two polls, one in 2016, one in 2019. Click on the image to see it in larger print.

The polls address a lot of other things too, if you read it.

[Josh]

Can you provide a single legitimate source for your assertion that ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilians have been deliberately targeted and have been under relentless assault at the hands of Ukraine for decades? No you cannot. That assertion is nothing more than manufactured Russian propaganda.

There are plenty of legitimate sources for this, published before 2022. It is not "Russian propaganda" and it is in fact quite disturbing that now you want to deny the atrocities conducted against ethnic Russians (who were nonetheless Ukrainian citizens), by other Ukrainian citizens who belong to extreme-far-right militias. I am frankly shocked that you would want to defend these groups.

[Josh]

And I don't see any sign that Russia is trying to protect the lives of Ukranian civilians now, not even in the Donbas. That's the opposite of what is happening.

I'm not some Russian advocate, or here to defend Russia's behaviour. I am simply here to make sure there is a balanced view on war: both sides are engaged in committing atrocities, and both ethnic Ukrainians (insofar as such a thing exists) and ethnic Russians have been victims of that.

[Josh]

The whole point of open source intelligence is that you can verify it for yourself, if you take the time to learn how.

Such a statement is condescending and rude, implying that I don't want to learn, or an somehow ignorant.

Boot, I've read Bellingcat's work since it first came out, I believe with some conflict in Syria years ago. I maintain my position to this day that Bellingcat is systemically biased and effectively produces propaganda for a particular side in conflicts - typically the Western side, for the factions who would generally be aligned with Washington Consensus or whatever you want to call it.

I can't force you to read it and grapple with the facts, but Bellingcat isn't asking you to take their word for it, and I'm not either. That's why I prefer verifiable sources. The level of evidence they give goes well beyond what you will find in most sources.

You keep claiming Bellingcat is "verified" and "unbiased", yet there is a rather obvious problem - they don't include sources that are not favourable to the point of view they are trying to perpetrate. If Bellingcat has somehow missed out on the brutal shelling attacks on ethnic Russian villages in the Donbas, that is prima facie evidence of how biased and unreliable Bellingcat is.

[Josh]

thus, as a U.S. citizen (more+more being labeled “white U.S. citizen”) i would find it logical to refer to these folks as: Russian-Ukrainian civilians.

Yes, that would be more neutral terminology.

Here's what people in the Donbas would like to be called. This gives the results of two polls, one in 2016, one in 2019. Click on the image to see it in larger print.


Screenshot 2022-10-13 135508.png


The polls address a lot of other things too, if you read it.

Except people living in the Donbas are not one homogenous entity. There are ethnic Ukrainian partisans and ethnic Russian partisans, amongst others. This inevitably leads to Balkanisation and such resultant conflicts.

Again, the entire point of what I am saying is that the attacks both sides have engaged in, against their ethnic rivals, are bad and wrong. What you are doing is trying to deny any atrocities and attacks committed by the Ukrainian government. Boot, you know better.

[Ken]

Language is not necessarily nationality.

Here in the US we speak English but we are not English, nor are we English-Americans.

Likewise, most citizens of Ireland speak English but that doesn't make them English either. Or English-Irish. They are just Irish.

Large numbers of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language. But that doesn't make them Russian. or Russian-Ukrainians. Zelenskyy, the president of Ukraine is a Russian-speaker. Russian is his first language. And the current ruling party in Ukraine of which Zelenskyy is the leader was the overwhelming choice of Russian-speaking Ukrainians in the last election. The favored party of Ukrainian-speakers led Poroshenko lost in every part of Ukraine except the far-western oblast of Lviv. And Zelenskyy's support was actually stronger in the Donbass than any other part of Ukraine. This is what the 2019 electoral map looked like. Poroshenko was actually the favored candidate of the west, not Zelenskyy. I have several Ukrainian immigrant and refugee students in my classes. They are all Russian-speaking. And they are all horrified at what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

[Bootstrap]

I'm not some Russian advocate, or here to defend Russia's behaviour. I am simply here to make sure there is a balanced view on war: both sides are engaged in committing atrocities, and both ethnic Ukrainians (insofar as such a thing exists) and ethnic Russians have been victims of that.

Yes, let's be balanced. Russia should not invade Ukraine. Ukraine should not invade Russia.

But the war itself is not balanced. Ukraine did not invade Russia. They are not bombing Moscow and St Petersburg. They are not questioning Russia's right to exist, or whether Russians even exist at all. It's hard to know for sure, but so far, it sure looks like the war atrocities committed by Russia are on a very different scale than those committed by Ukraine. Russian civilians are not in a war zone, Ukranian civilians are, affecting just about every aspect of their lives and costing many, many lives.

And in a balanced view, Ukranians really do exist. No need to add "insofar as such a thing exists". Unless you are questioning all national and ethnic identities and boundaries - if you want to do that, the balanced approach is to add Russia (insofar as such a thing exists).

[Bootstrap]

Can you provide a single legitimate source for your assertion that ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilians have been deliberately targeted and have been under relentless assault at the hands of Ukraine for decades? No you cannot. That assertion is nothing more than manufactured Russian propaganda.

There are plenty of legitimate sources for this, published before 2022. It is not "Russian propaganda" and it is in fact quite disturbing that now you want to deny the atrocities conducted against ethnic Russians (who were nonetheless Ukrainian citizens), by other Ukrainian citizens who belong to extreme-far-right militias. I am frankly shocked that you would want to defend these groups.

In other words, no. He can't provide such a source. But he knows a lot of very strong adjectives.