Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Bootstrap]

If they were located in Ukraine, they would logically be called Ukrainian civilians. But if one is attempting to avoid picking sides, simply calling them civilians might be better.

Concealing the fact that Ukrainian nationalist-extremists are shelling ethnic Russian enclaves is intellectually dishonest, unless you have a better explanation for why the Ukraine tolerates militias shelling "Ukrainians".

You use a lot of strong adjectives.

It's not "concealing the fact" if it's not a fact. Repeating the claim with stronger adjectives does not make it a fact.

Care to address the facts in the reports I posted? I think that's what "intellectual honesty" would do. The Bellingcat report is based entirely on open source intelligence that you can verify for yourself, if you want to take the time to learn how. As I pointed out, these articles are from 2014-2016, well before the current conflict. You claimed that nobody was saying this before 2022, but a LOT of people were saying this in 2014-2016, and most of the sources I can find that carefully source their facts were saying precisely this.

[temporal1]

When “a fact” is determined, then held onto for life/death, with no regard for mitigating circumstances, new facts, or other,
this represents dogma, nothing else. dogma can be really handy. comforting. but rarely useful.

dog·ma /ˈdôɡmə/ noun

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
"the rejection of political dogma"

i understand different people have different abilities to respond.
some have different levels of need for control. it’s just reality.

this is true even for folks who are well educated, well employed. (all are gifted.) no one has everything.

[Josh]

If they were located in Ukraine, they would logically be called Ukrainian civilians. But if one is attempting to avoid picking sides, simply calling them civilians might be better.

Concealing the fact that Ukrainian nationalist-extremists are shelling ethnic Russian enclaves is intellectually dishonest, unless you have a better explanation for why the Ukraine tolerates militias shelling "Ukrainians".

You use a lot of strong adjectives.

It's not "concealing the fact" if it's not a fact. Repeating the claim with stronger adjectives does not make it a fact.

Care to address the facts in the reports I posted? I think that's what "intellectual honesty" would do. The Bellingcat report is based entirely on open source intelligence that you can verify for yourself, if you want to take the time to learn how. As I pointed out, these articles are from 2014-2016, well before the current conflict. You claimed that nobody was saying this before 2022, but a LOT of people were saying this in 2014-2016, and most of the sources I can find that carefully source their facts were saying precisely this.

Again, Bellingcat is not a reliable, uunbiased source.

I don't think anyone disputes this, though: there are Russian ethnic enclaves and Ukrainian ethnic enclaves within the Donbas.

I am asserting that paramilitary militia groups engaged in shelling of Russian enclaves. (It is beyond absurd to claim that these were Russian false flag attacks.) Until recently, this wasn't even disputed; nobody disagreed except the propagandists of neo-Nazi groups like Azov. The Ukrainian government itself made promises to get this problem under control.

What really concerns me here, Bootstrap, is that you seem to have zero sympathy or care or concern for ethnic Russians on the Ukrainian side of the border who have been under a relentless assault for decades. It is no different than Russian Federation partisans who show the same callous disregard for Ukrainian people. As kingdom Christians, we ought not to choose sides, and that includes that we ought not to silently pick a side and then claim that our side never commits any atrocities or does anything wrong.

[Ken]

Concealing the fact that Ukrainian nationalist-extremists are shelling ethnic Russian enclaves is intellectually dishonest, unless you have a better explanation for why the Ukraine tolerates militias shelling "Ukrainians".

You use a lot of strong adjectives.

It's not "concealing the fact" if it's not a fact. Repeating the claim with stronger adjectives does not make it a fact.

Care to address the facts in the reports I posted? I think that's what "intellectual honesty" would do. The Bellingcat report is based entirely on open source intelligence that you can verify for yourself, if you want to take the time to learn how. As I pointed out, these articles are from 2014-2016, well before the current conflict. You claimed that nobody was saying this before 2022, but a LOT of people were saying this in 2014-2016, and most of the sources I can find that carefully source their facts were saying precisely this.

Again, Bellingcat is not a reliable, uunbiased source.

I don't think anyone disputes this, though: there are Russian ethnic enclaves and Ukrainian ethnic enclaves within the Donbas.

I am asserting that paramilitary militia groups engaged in shelling of Russian enclaves. (It is beyond absurd to claim that these were Russian false flag attacks.) Until recently, this wasn't even disputed; nobody disagreed except the propagandists of neo-Nazi groups like Azov. The Ukrainian government itself made promises to get this problem under control.

What really concerns me here, Bootstrap, is that you seem to have zero sympathy or care or concern for ethnic Russians on the Ukrainian side of the border who have been under a relentless assault for decades. It is no different than Russian Federation partisans who show the same callous disregard for Ukrainian people. As kingdom Christians, we ought not to choose sides, and that includes that we ought not to silently pick a side and then claim that our side never commits any atrocities or does anything wrong.

Can you provide a single legitimate source for your assertion that ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilians have been deliberately targeted and have been under relentless assault at the hands of Ukraine for decades? No you cannot. That assertion is nothing more than manufactured Russian propaganda.

[Bootstrap]

You use a lot of strong adjectives.

It's not "concealing the fact" if it's not a fact. Repeating the claim with stronger adjectives does not make it a fact.

Care to address the facts in the reports I posted? I think that's what "intellectual honesty" would do. The Bellingcat report is based entirely on open source intelligence that you can verify for yourself, if you want to take the time to learn how. As I pointed out, these articles are from 2014-2016, well before the current conflict. You claimed that nobody was saying this before 2022, but a LOT of people were saying this in 2014-2016, and most of the sources I can find that carefully source their facts were saying precisely this.

Until recently, this wasn't even disputed;

That's not even remotely true. See the dates of the above articles, for instance. Not much point in providing these facts for you if you simply brush them off and keep throwing adjectives.

And I don't see any sign that Russia is trying to protect the lives of Ukranian civilians now, not even in the Donbas. That's the opposite of what is happening.

[Bootstrap]

Care to address the facts in the reports I posted? I think that's what "intellectual honesty" would do. The Bellingcat report is based entirely on open source intelligence that you can verify for yourself, if you want to take the time to learn how. As I pointed out, these articles are from 2014-2016, well before the current conflict. You claimed that nobody was saying this before 2022, but a LOT of people were saying this in 2014-2016, and most of the sources I can find that carefully source their facts were saying precisely this.

Again, Bellingcat is not a reliable, unbiased source.

The whole point of open source intelligence is that you can verify it for yourself, if you take the time to learn how.

I can't force you to read it and grapple with the facts, but Bellingcat isn't asking you to take their word for it, and I'm not either. That's why I prefer verifiable sources. The level of evidence they give goes well beyond what you will find in most sources.

[ohio jones]

If they were located in Ukraine, they would logically be called Ukrainian civilians. But if one is attempting to avoid picking sides, simply calling them civilians might be better.

Concealing the fact that Ukrainian nationalist-extremists are shelling ethnic Russian enclaves is intellectually dishonest, unless you have a better explanation for why the Ukraine tolerates militias shelling "Ukrainians".

Referring to Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity as "Russian civilians" is hardly more intellectually honest than calling George Floyd an "African civilian."

[Bootstrap]

What really concerns me here, Bootstrap, is that you seem to have zero sympathy or care or concern for ethnic Russians on the Ukrainian side of the border who have been under a relentless assault for decades.

But I do care about them. I just don't believe Putin's claims about who was doing that to them. And they are facing even more of that now that they are in a hot war zone. I don't think a military invasion has made their lives better. I don't think we have seen Putin trying to protect them and care for them in 2022.

[temporal1]

^^To oj:
This might be a wording shortfall. i don’t know.
However, i would guess most have no problem with (G Floyd or others) being labeled African-American civilian, altho i know some black U.S. citizens do not want that label. They believe they are U.S. citizens, full stop.

i empathize with both views.

When the term African-Americans was first put in use, my father was quite offended. He strongly believed “U.S. citizen is U.S. citizen.” i get that view. i respect it. i learned to respect African-American (and all that followed) - but, there remains a “purity” about simply recognizing citizenship. i suppose, courts of law are most interested in legal citizenship. but, likely, that is not a given, due to so much “deciding by division” being normalized, even in courts. (now including dismissing the value of legal citizenship.)

thus, as a U.S. citizen (more+more being labeled “white U.S. citizen”) i would find it logical to refer to these folks as:
Russian-Ukrainian civilians.

[temporal1]

What really concerns me here, Bootstrap, is that you seem to have zero sympathy or care or concern for ethnic Russians on the Ukrainian side of the border who have been under a relentless assault for decades.

But I do care about them. And they are facing even more of that now that they are in a hot war zone. I don't think a military invasion has made their lives better.

NO ONE’s LIFE HAS BEEN MADE BETTER. This was 100% predictable. History tells the tale.
Instead of gearing up for mega-hot war, then jumping into it on Day 1, 1) why didn’t the West not invest in prevention?
2) why has the West not prioritized negotiations for resolution?

Russia has been consistent and not complicated about its positions. Months ago, Z was in talks with Putin (mainstream crickets).
The West has .. been hawkish, and, i believe has moved some goal posts (Crimea).

Stepping back, viewing both sides, no innocents in this. Not over years.

Some believe the U.S. is mistaken to over-focus on this conflict, esp wrt China.

Clearly, all the world appears unstable, at best.

As for me, i wonder if my grdaughter will be learning Russian or Chinese or Arabic?
https://telelanguage.com/blog/top-languages-usa/

Spanish is reported as the second language, but, add up Asian languages, it falls behind.
i don’t know if that’s valid math.