Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[temporal1]

More repetition ..

March 2022 / “The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War. It’s Not ‘Siding With Putin’ to Admit It”
But Moscow’s cruel overreaction deserves emphatic condemnation.
https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-nato ... n-admit-it

I agree with the first paragraph of this:

Vladimir Putin’s decision to launch a full‐​scale invasion of Ukraine is a monstrous act of aggression that has plunged the world into a perilous situation. By any reasonable standard, his move was an over‐​the‐​top response to any Ukrainian or NATO provocations. However, that conclusion is different from saying that there were no provocations, as far too many policymakers and pundits in the West are doing now.

But ..
people seem to be pushing back on the notion that Putin is doing something monstrous and blatantly wrong. And sometimes implying that Ukraine deserves what it gets. That doesn't seem like a good way to oppose warmongering.

i don’t know what you’re reading-hearing off-forum.
i don’t see ANY forum member responding as you are describing, following “But” ..

no one here is suggesting Putin’s aggression was correct, or acceptable.
no one here is implying Ukraine deserves what it gets.
no one here is ok with warmongering.

aside from hawkish politicians and mainstream media, my perception is that MOST are distraught for Ukraine, and uneasy about expanded war, even global war, not looking to blame, but seriously interested in “stopping the bleeding” - to save the patient.

btw.
i believe Elon Musk’s suggestions are quite similar to (what was reported early-on) as points for diplomatic discussion, Ukraine/Russia.
the points don’t represent “all” of Ukraine’s dreams, nor Russia’s. that’s to be expected in diplomatic resolutions.

when warring nations demand total victory, this equates to extended war, at the cost of death and destruction.
the mainstream seems to continue to have a thirst for war. (they print that, while checking their smartphones to confirm their dinner reservations.)

i don’t think Ukraine “deserves” that. ^^

[Bootstrap]

no one here is suggesting Putin’s aggression was correct, or acceptable.
no one here is implying Ukraine deserves what it gets.
no one here is ok with warmongering.

I would find it really, really helpful to hear some of the voices in this thread say that Putin's aggression was wrong, Ukraine does not deserve this, and invading neighboring countries is military imperialism and warmongering. And expressing sympathy for the victims of this war.

I think those are the main things I am saying in this thread. When people push back on me for saying those things, sometimes with a fair amount of contempt, I feel like they disagree with these fairly straightforward statements. I was expecting this to be obvious common ground.

[Ken]

no one here is suggesting Putin’s aggression was correct, or acceptable.
no one here is implying Ukraine deserves what it gets.
no one here is ok with warmongering.

I would find it really, really helpful to hear some of the voices in this thread say that Putin's aggression was wrong, Ukraine does not deserve this, and invading neighboring countries is military imperialism and warmongering. And expressing sympathy for the victims of this war.

I think those are the main things I am saying in this thread. When people push back on me for saying those things, sometimes with a fair amount of contempt, I feel like they disagree with these fairly straightforward statements. I was expecting this to be obvious common ground.

I get the sense (not necessarily here but in the conservative world writ-large) that a lot of conservatives became enamored with Putin's Russia because of the so-called "family values" which is mostly manifested in the form of anti-LGBT persecution and Orthodox Christian dominance in politics.

And that they are willing to excuse virtually any behavior by Russia up to and including actual genocide and mass murder because of those other conservative stances. You see that attitude in some conservative media such as Tucker Carlson. Russia is literally acting as a terrorist state on a daily basis by deliberately bombing and destroying Ukrainian cities and targeting civilians (schools, hospitals, train stations, shopping malls, theaters). The behavior is so pervasive we have become numb to it and barely pay attention. If, for example, Israel bombs a civilian target in the West Bank the media is all over it. But we barely notice Russia doing it anymore. For example, this is just from today: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/10/07 ... e-war-news

At least 22 civilians were killed and 32 injured in Russian attacks over the past 24 hours, a senior official in Mr. Zelensky’s office, Kyrylo Tymoshenko, said Friday morning in a post on the Telegram messaging app.

Much of Russia’s firepower was focused on the south of Ukraine, where Ukraine’s military on Friday accused Russia of using four Iranian-made “kamikaze” drones to strike Zaporizhzhia and the city of Mykolaiv.

Overnight nearly 40 Russian rockets hit another city, Nikopol, on the western bank of the Dnipro River, damaging at least 10 homes, several apartment blocks and other infrastructure, according to the head of the regional military administration, Valentyn Reznichenko. He said that further shelling on Friday evening killed one man and wounded another.

And....

Russian shelling once again compromised the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant in southern Ukraine, damaging a power line that supplies electricity to one of the plant’s six reactors, the United Nations’ nuclear watchdog said on Friday.

The bombardment, which hit an industrial area outside the plant, severed the reactor’s connection to a 150-kilovolt backup line and forced into operation five diesel generators for about 90 minutes, the International Atomic Energy Agency said, but did not affect the unit’s core cooling.

I find it rather shocking and a 180 turn from where conservatives were at even just a decade or so ago with respect to Russia. Mitt Romney, for example, in 2012 identified Russia as the greatest threat to the US and western interests and people laughed. But he was right.

[temporal1]

no one here is suggesting Putin’s aggression was correct, or acceptable.
no one here is implying Ukraine deserves what it gets.
no one here is ok with warmongering.

I would find it really, really helpful to hear some of the voices in this thread say that Putin's aggression was wrong, Ukraine does not deserve this, and invading neighboring countries is military imperialism and warmongering. And expressing sympathy for the victims of this war.

I think those are the main things I am saying in this thread. When people push back on me for saying those things, sometimes with a fair amount of contempt, I feel like they disagree with these fairly straightforward statements. I was expecting this to be obvious common ground.

hmm. i don’t sense this at all. i see tremendous sympathy for Ukraine. i believe it’s clearly common ground.
there are questions about NATO and the West.

have you overlooked the members here sharing missions info (and a spin-off thread for them)? have you overlooked many calls for prayer? another spin-off thread was about “loving Putin?” there are a few related threads.

http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... lit=loving
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 27#p151727

i don’t think many or any are here to find a designated leader for various causes that arise. most are convinced Jesus leads.
there are many responses that do not conflict, but that present differently .. “each in his own way, in his own words.”

[Bootstrap]

no one here is suggesting Putin’s aggression was correct, or acceptable.
no one here is implying Ukraine deserves what it gets.
no one here is ok with warmongering.

I would find it really, really helpful to hear some of the voices in this thread say that Putin's aggression was wrong, Ukraine does not deserve this, and invading neighboring countries is military imperialism and warmongering. And expressing sympathy for the victims of this war.

I think those are the main things I am saying in this thread. When people push back on me for saying those things, sometimes with a fair amount of contempt, I feel like they disagree with these fairly straightforward statements. I was expecting this to be obvious common ground.

hmm. i don’t sense this at all. i see tremendous sympathy for Ukraine. i believe it’s clearly common ground.

Can you point me to some of those posts in this thread, the ones that show tremendous sympathy for Ukraine, especially recently and from people who are pushing back on me? Posts that emphasize just how awful this is for the people who live there and are having their lives destroyed?

Really, if we could express that common ground more clearly and simply, I think you would see a very different response coming from me. It would give me a lot more to agree with.

[temporal1]

I would find it really, really helpful to hear some of the voices in this thread say that Putin's aggression was wrong, Ukraine does not deserve this, and invading neighboring countries is military imperialism and warmongering. And expressing sympathy for the victims of this war.

I think those are the main things I am saying in this thread. When people push back on me for saying those things, sometimes with a fair amount of contempt, I feel like they disagree with these fairly straightforward statements. I was expecting this to be obvious common ground.

hmm. i don’t sense this at all. i see tremendous sympathy for Ukraine. i believe it’s clearly common ground.

Can you point me to some of those posts in this thread, the ones that show tremendous sympathy for Ukraine, especially recently and from people who are pushing back on me? Posts that emphasize just how awful this is for the people who live there and are having their lives destroyed?

Really, if we could express that common ground more clearly and simply, I think you would see a very different response coming from me. It would give me a lot more to agree with.

Mike’s post below was/is originally in this thread, Page 84, i shared it in Neto’s thread, which is a source for Ukraine missions:

This is a sweet video. i’ve viewed a few times:

Friends of ours in Poland posted the following video a few days ago on the Ukrainian refugee crisis. Their lives have been transformed overnight as they have been plunged into this situation, and their work is worth supporting.

There’s lots of great content in this thread.

[Josh]

I would find it really, really helpful to hear some of the voices in this thread say that Putin's aggression was wrong, Ukraine does not deserve this, and invading neighboring countries is military imperialism and warmongering. And expressing sympathy for the victims of this war.

I think those are the main things I am saying in this thread. When people push back on me for saying those things, sometimes with a fair amount of contempt, I feel like they disagree with these fairly straightforward statements. I was expecting this to be obvious common ground.

hmm. i don’t sense this at all. i see tremendous sympathy for Ukraine. i believe it’s clearly common ground.

Can you point me to some of those posts in this thread, the ones that show tremendous sympathy for Ukraine, especially recently and from people who are pushing back on me? Posts that emphasize just how awful this is for the people who live there and are having their lives destroyed?

Really, if we could express that common ground more clearly and simply, I think you would see a very different response coming from me. It would give me a lot more to agree with.

As a Westerner and an Anabaptist, it’s my duty to speak out against my own Western country’s warmongering behaviour, not find ways to go along with it.

[temporal1]

As a Westerner and an Anabaptist, it’s my duty to speak out against my own Western country’s warmongering behaviour, not find ways to go along with it.

i don’t interpret this to suggest endorsement of (warmongering) by anyone-any country-anywhere, it unfortunately doesn’t exclude the U.S./West from scrutiny, with abundant sad examples to cite. it’s not embracing Putin. not close.

Josh, please correct if i misunderstand. i do not believe you embrace Putin. nor Zelensky. nor biden. nor DJT.
i believe you mourn for those suffering in Ukraine, and elsewhere.

[temporal1]

the idea there may have been calculated decisions made over years (by the good guys) that would (tempt, or bait, or push, or provoke) military aggression, is disturbing. knowing knowledgeable diplomats had warned in attempt to prevent, adds to these questions.

the ancient game of chess (military strategy) cannot be ignored. i’m terrible at it. being aware some live by it can be helpful in understanding where others are coming from. (which i find better than being continually surprised.)

Does chess teach military strategy?
Perhaps the most interesting examples are in the world of chess. The game has been teaching military strategists the ways of war for hundreds of years and has been a testbed for AI development for decades. Military officials have been paying attention.
Jan 3, 2020

U.S. mentality is strongly for Just War, so, questions about provoking military aggression for the purpose of justifying military response, for popular support, cannot be dismissed out of hand.

none involved “just fell off the cabbage cart” Feb 24.
power and profits are significant motivators. world history reflects.

a major influence in my life was Vietnam, so unpopular, the unpopularity crossed party lines, and most lines,
but, in those days, libs, progressives, hippies, were railing against The Establishment/conservatives on all matters -
in a reversal (my father foresaw) they have now become The Establishment, in fact, more rigid+intolerant than those prior.
(in the day, i thought my father was peculiar and couldn’t possibly be correct.) as flags+draft cards+bras+buildings were burned.

i didn’t question him, i was puzzled. (children were to be seen, not heard.)
he’s gone, his predictions were correct.

the older folks knew history, and they knew scriptures. giving them a foundation for foresight of human patterns of behavior.

for myself,
i would LOVE to trust without question U.S. leaders, and mainstream media. gov schools. healthcare. o.my, yes.

but that’s not reality, and it’s not what scriptures suggest. the earthly world has governments+laws, it must.
but, only 1 God.

all human endeavors are fallible.
in the U.S., citizens can speak, we can hope for accountability. not all vote, many do not, for different reasons; there are various ways to speak, voting is one way. sharing the Gospel Truth is another, the one Jesus wanted shared on earth.

[Josh]

As a Westerner and an Anabaptist, it’s my duty to speak out against my own Western country’s warmongering behaviour, not find ways to go along with it.

i don’t interpret this to suggest endorsement of (warmongering) by anyone-any country-anywhere, it unfortunately doesn’t exclude the U.S./West from scrutiny, with abundant sad examples to cite. it’s not embracing Putin. not close.

Josh, please correct if i misunderstand. i do not believe you embrace Putin. nor Zelensky. nor biden. nor DJT.
i believe you mourn for those suffering in Ukraine, and elsewhere.

Yes, and suffering in war happens in part because of supplying massive amounts of arms. The myth is that there is a “bad side” and “good side” and that it is OK to provide munitions and assistance to help the “good side”.

After America decided to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, and so many people stayed silent or supported that invasion, it is the height of hypocrisy to think America can somehow choose the right side again and once again ship massive amounts of weapons to a war zone.

One good thing to do is diplomacy and negotiation to prevent violent conflicts. We got to see what that was like in 2017-2021.