Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Falco Underhill]

There are very numerous news reports about the referendum from reporters on the ground in all the major newspapers and media outlets from around the world. So yes. It isn't "my propaganda" It is what is being reported by every major media source from around the world that is doing on-the-ground reporting in Ukraine.

And your evidence that they are all universally lying about what Russia is doing is what? Your gut instinct? Do you have any reputable sources at all that provide the contrary argument that Russia conducted a free and fair referendum that was legal under international law and Ukrainian law?

The onus is on you to prove your own claims, not on the rest of us to disprove them. I am not claiming they are false necessarily, only that I need more proof to take them as seriously as they want us to.

The Times reports witness statements by people whose names of course have all been "withheld for their own safety."

Possible, under those circumstances, but also possible they're just making stuff up.

The picture they provide of folks voting in a mobile bus certainly doesn't show anyone being threatened in any way.

So, you don't really have any proof as far as I can tell.

Josh is the one who came here and claimed that last week's so-called referendum in Ukraine means that the population of the occupied territories actually wants to secede from Ukraine and be annexed by Russia. That was his claim. The only evidence he has for it is the sham referendum that Russia just conducted. Which every single independent news outlet everywhere in the world (outside of Russia) has reported as fraudulent.

Pick any independent news outlet that you want that covered this so-called referendum and let's look at what their coverage says. Go ahead, you pick.

How about FOX News: https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-exp ... -end-today

How about the Washington Times? https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... fter-sham/

How about CNBC? https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/28/fake-re ... ation.html

How about the Times of London? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the- ... -vjtw098m6

Go ahead, you pick your news source. Funny how they all say the same thing isn't it?

They all repeat the sham line, not the "forced to vote at gun point" story. His hand was forced by circumstances to get a referendum in his favor quickly. He wasn't going to let it drag on and he may well have cheated to get the results he wanted and as quickly as possible.

I do not necessarily believe that means that area would NOT have supported annexation anyway.

[Ken]

They all repeat the sham line, not the "forced to vote at gun point" story. His hand was forced by circumstances to get a referendum in his favor quickly. He wasn't going to let it drag on and he may well have cheated to get the results he wanted and as quickly as possible.

I do not necessarily believe that means that area would NOT have supported annexation anyway.

So you agree that the media coverage from left to right universally reports these elections as a sham. You just want independent confirmation of the NYT reporting about being forced to vote at gunpoint? OK, how about Human Rights Watch:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/09/30/fic ... g-gunpoint

Fictitious Annexation Follows 'Voting' at Gunpoint: Sham Vote in Occupied Regions of Ukraine Provides No Legal Basis for Russian Annexation

Vladimir Putin has just signed a document claiming to annex four Russia-occupied Ukrainian territories in Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson regions. Days before, Russia purported to hold “referendums” in these areas, with hastily staged “voting,” in some cases at gunpoint.

Just like the so-called referendum in Crimea in 2014, they hold no legal value and don’t provide a basis for annexation or transfer of sovereignty.

Russia remains an occupying power in these regions bound by the Fourth Geneva Convention, which continues to protect civilians in those areas. In particular, if Russian authorities conscript civilians from these areas, as they’ve been doing in occupied Crimea and occupied areas of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, they’ll be committing new war crimes.

War crimes under Russian occupation are nothing new. From the start of the occupation, Russian authorities have been suppressing dissent through widespread intimidation, including torture and enforced disappearances. I’ve interviewed dozens of civilians from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, who shared horrific accounts of beatings, electric shocks, and incommunicado detention at the hands of Russian forces. Many were locked up for days or weeks, blindfolded, with their hands tied.

Russian propaganda, predictably, claims people overwhelmingly “voted” to join Russia. Even if there were some genuine supporters, this does not give the process any legal value. Moreover, Ukrainians I spoke to paint a very different picture. Alexey Koshel, the head of Ukraine’s Committee of Voters, described to me how poll workers carried ballots door-to-door accompanied by armed soldiers: “Imagine … [f]our armed men walk into your flat. You have to vote to join Russia, at gunpoint. If you refuse or vote ‘no’, you’ll be doing it right in front of them, they can see what you put on the ballot.”

Several people told me about their experiences over the phone. “Today’s the second day of the pseudo-referendum. It’s morally exhausting … We’re in hiding and intend to hide for the next three days,” a woman from Kherson said. A panic-stricken man in Zaporizhzhia region said: “We’re afraid ... My uncle said that I have to open the door when they come, or the neighbors might report [me]. I will have to tick a box for Russia, or they might tear down my house.”

Here is more reporting from a UK Newspaper complete with pictures: https://metro.co.uk/2022/09/26/ukrainia ... -17448794/

Or, I suppose you can go with the so-called independent election observers that Russia imported from Venezuela who reported on Russian TV that they saw nothing untoward. Heh. Venezuela. Now that is a bastion of freedom and democracy.

[Falco Underhill]

They all repeat the sham line, not the "forced to vote at gun point" story. His hand was forced by circumstances to get a referendum in his favor quickly. He wasn't going to let it drag on and he may well have cheated to get the results he wanted and as quickly as possible.

I do not necessarily believe that means that area would NOT have supported annexation anyway.

So you agree that the media coverage from left to right universally reports these elections as a sham. You just want independent confirmation of the NYT reporting about being forced to vote at gunpoint? OK, how about Human Rights Watch:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/09/30/fic ... g-gunpoint

Fictitious Annexation Follows 'Voting' at Gunpoint: Sham Vote in Occupied Regions of Ukraine Provides No Legal Basis for Russian Annexation

Vladimir Putin has just signed a document claiming to annex four Russia-occupied Ukrainian territories in Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson regions. Days before, Russia purported to hold “referendums” in these areas, with hastily staged “voting,” in some cases at gunpoint.

Just like the so-called referendum in Crimea in 2014, they hold no legal value and don’t provide a basis for annexation or transfer of sovereignty.

Russia remains an occupying power in these regions bound by the Fourth Geneva Convention, which continues to protect civilians in those areas. In particular, if Russian authorities conscript civilians from these areas, as they’ve been doing in occupied Crimea and occupied areas of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, they’ll be committing new war crimes.

War crimes under Russian occupation are nothing new. From the start of the occupation, Russian authorities have been suppressing dissent through widespread intimidation, including torture and enforced disappearances. I’ve interviewed dozens of civilians from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, who shared horrific accounts of beatings, electric shocks, and incommunicado detention at the hands of Russian forces. Many were locked up for days or weeks, blindfolded, with their hands tied.

Russian propaganda, predictably, claims people overwhelmingly “voted” to join Russia. Even if there were some genuine supporters, this does not give the process any legal value. Moreover, Ukrainians I spoke to paint a very different picture. Alexey Koshel, the head of Ukraine’s Committee of Voters, described to me how poll workers carried ballots door-to-door accompanied by armed soldiers: “Imagine … [f]our armed men walk into your flat. You have to vote to join Russia, at gunpoint. If you refuse or vote ‘no’, you’ll be doing it right in front of them, they can see what you put on the ballot.”

Several people told me about their experiences over the phone. “Today’s the second day of the pseudo-referendum. It’s morally exhausting … We’re in hiding and intend to hide for the next three days,” a woman from Kherson said. A panic-stricken man in Zaporizhzhia region said: “We’re afraid ... My uncle said that I have to open the door when they come, or the neighbors might report [me]. I will have to tick a box for Russia, or they might tear down my house.”

Or, I suppose you can go with the so-called independent election observers that Russia imported from Venezuela who reported on Russian TV that they saw nothing untoward. Heh. Venezuela. Now that is a bastion of freedom and democracy.

"Someone I spoke to said" blah blah blah.

[Ken]

"Someone I spoke to said" blah blah blah.

Newsflash. That is what reporters do. They interview people.

In this case that is the only way to get news from that region because Russia doesn’t allow independent reporting.

[Falco Underhill]

"Someone I spoke to said" blah blah blah.

Newsflash. That is what reporters do. They interview people.

In this case that is the only way to get news from that region because Russia doesn’t allow independent reporting.

Problem is while those circumstances make the story plausible it also makes making up stories plausible. So if you have nothing better than news reporters reporting words of people who can't be named you're not gonna win this.

[temporal1]

OK Josh. Point us ..

“us?” .. not sure what this means.
(i believe) Josh is an equal member of this forum of unorganized members .. he’s not a “them” here and you an “us.”
maybe mods will clarify forum expectations. i’m not a mod, and i’m unsure.

[Ken]

OK Josh. Point us ..

“us?” .. not sure what this means.
(i believe) Josh is an equal member of this forum of unorganized members .. he’s not a “them” here and you an “us.”
maybe mods will clarify forum expectations. i’m not a mod, and i’m unsure.

Josh claimed that 2020 election deniers here in the US made the same claims as observers have made about the 2022 so-called referendum in the occupied regions of Ukraine.

I'm simply asking him to support that assertion.

[Ken]

"Someone I spoke to said" blah blah blah.

Newsflash. That is what reporters do. They interview people.

In this case that is the only way to get news from that region because Russia doesn’t allow independent reporting.

Problem is while those circumstances make the story plausible it also makes making up stories plausible. So if you have nothing better than news reporters reporting words of people who can't be named you're not gonna win this.

If Russia had the slightest interest in running this referendum as a free, fair, and open election they could have invited in foreign press and independent observers like any other free, fair, and open election. They had absolutely zero interest in that because they had zero interest in running a free, fair, and open election. This farce was really about four different objectives:

1. A show of power in the occupied territories. Russia is telling the citizens who remain that we are in charge and we can FORCE you to vote to have yourselves annexed to Russia.

2. Internal consumption in Russia. They are trying to gin up support for this adventure in Russia and provide legal cover for sending conscripts to Ukraine which they can't legally do under Russian law. They can only deploy conscripts within Russia. So declare Ukraine to be part of Russia and problem solved.

3. To tie the hands of current and future Russian politicians. Under the Russian constitution, lands claimed by Russia can never be surrendered. So this is an attempt to double-down and prevent any peace settlements that would cede any occupied parts of Ukraine back to Ukraine.

4. To collect enemies lists and lists of potential dissidents in the occupied territories. The list they are generating of people who voted NO and who evaded the referendum is a handy starting point for future persecution and round-ups in the occupied territories.

None of those four objectives require an election be conducted in any sort of free, fair, and open manner. To the contrary, just the opposite.

[Falco Underhill]

If Russia had the slightest interest in running this referendum as a free, fair, and open election they could have invited in foreign press and independent observers like any other free, fair, and open election.

You mean like Joe Biden's election, with boarded up windows and keeping observers away at a distance because of covid, etc? And in a war zone those kinds of problems likely would have been exacerbated. I'm not sure it would have solved many problems.

1. A show of power in the occupied territories. Russia is telling the citizens who remain that we are in charge and we can FORCE you to vote to have yourselves annexed to Russia.

A lot of people apparently turned out to vote in the region. I think the "at gun point" stories were to explain that away, and that's all.

[temporal1]

OK Josh. Point us ..

“us?” .. not sure what this means.
(i believe) Josh is an equal member of this forum of unorganized members .. he’s not a “them” here and you an “us.”
maybe mods will clarify forum expectations. i’m not a mod, and i’m unsure.

Josh claimed that 2020 election deniers here in the US made the same claims as observers have made about the 2022 so-called referendum in the occupied regions of Ukraine.

I'm simply asking him to support that assertion.

It’s not the question. It’s the inferrence that you lead/represent a group on this forum, i don’t believe you do. i see different opinions, not different factions. i see agreement/disagreement, not organized warring tribes.

i don’t believe us/them mentality is what members want to find here.
Example, this isn’t your classroom where you might address some errant student who happens to disagree with you with words like, “johnny, point us (your class) to” .. (whatever). With the intent of dismissing and demeaning johnny in front of the entire class.

^^That’s not “simply” asking a question.

My perception. Mods may differ/correct.