Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

I once worked a polling place and sometimes police officers came in with guns (which technically they aren't supposed to do).

Does that mean that the people voting at my polling place were voting "at gunpoint"?

[Ken]

I once worked a polling place and sometimes police officers came in with guns (which technically they aren't supposed to do).

Does that mean that the people voting at my polling place were voting "at gunpoint"?

Did they come to your house and make you check a "yes" or "no" box with armed soldiers standing behind taking notes on your answer?

And if you didn't want to vote or didn't want to answer the door did they break down your door and find you inside your house and then demand that you vote yes or no at gunpoint?

That is how Russia conducted its so-called referendum last week.

[Ken]

This is the same rhetoric people who think the 2020 U.S. election was unfair use.



Notice the language Ken uses here: if you do not fully support the West and whatever country it decides to invade and be at war with (Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Luhansk, Donetsk), you are "vile", support "genocide", "war crimes", etc.

Knock it off, Ken.

OK Josh. Point us to a single 2020 election denier who claims they were forced to vote for Biden at gunpoint in the 2020 election on an open ballot with soldiers watching and taking notes.

And yes, I will stand by my claim that when Russia forces people to vote at gunpoint on an open ballot (they have to check yes or no with Russian soldiers watching and taking notes) and then uses the results of such a referendum to justify annexation. Then Russia is indeed engaged in the most vile form of war propaganda. Whether you choose to repeat it is your choice.

Get real, Ken. There were probably soldiers carrying guns to protect those who were taking the referendum, that's all. (They were in a war zone, remember?) Stop drinking the cool aid.

No, they did it for force people to vote. The referendum was an act of coercion on the part of Russia. That was part of the point. To illustrate to the residents that Russia could force them to vote in favor of Russian annexation. And also to collect lists of people who opposed annexation.

That is why they went door to door which is not the normal way to conduct any sort of election. What do you think would have happened if they had just opened up polling places and asked people to come vote on their own? Few people would have done so.

This has all been exceedingly well documented. But sure, go ahead and repeat the Russian propaganda about these so-called referendums if you want.

[Falco Underhill]

OK Josh. Point us to a single 2020 election denier who claims they were forced to vote for Biden at gunpoint in the 2020 election on an open ballot with soldiers watching and taking notes.

And yes, I will stand by my claim that when Russia forces people to vote at gunpoint on an open ballot (they have to check yes or no with Russian soldiers watching and taking notes) and then uses the results of such a referendum to justify annexation. Then Russia is indeed engaged in the most vile form of war propaganda. Whether you choose to repeat it is your choice.

Get real, Ken. There were probably soldiers carrying guns to protect those who were taking the referendum, that's all. (They were in a war zone, remember?) Stop drinking the cool aid.

No, they did it for force people to vote. The referendum was an act of coercion on the part of Russia. That was part of the point. To illustrate to the residents that Russia could force them to vote in favor of Russian annexation. And also to collect lists of people who opposed annexation.

That is why they went door to door which is not the normal way to conduct any sort of election. What do you think would have happened if they had just opened up polling places and asked people to come vote on their own? Few people would have done so.

This has all been exceedingly well documented. But sure, go ahead and repeat the Russian propaganda about these so-called referendums if you want.

Do you actually believe your own propaganda?

[Ken]

Get real, Ken. There were probably soldiers carrying guns to protect those who were taking the referendum, that's all. (They were in a war zone, remember?) Stop drinking the cool aid.

No, they did it for force people to vote. The referendum was an act of coercion on the part of Russia. That was part of the point. To illustrate to the residents that Russia could force them to vote in favor of Russian annexation. And also to collect lists of people who opposed annexation.

That is why they went door to door which is not the normal way to conduct any sort of election. What do you think would have happened if they had just opened up polling places and asked people to come vote on their own? Few people would have done so.

This has all been exceedingly well documented. But sure, go ahead and repeat the Russian propaganda about these so-called referendums if you want.

Do you actually believe your own propaganda?

There are very numerous news reports about the referendum from reporters on the ground in all the major newspapers and media outlets from around the world. So yes. It isn't "my propaganda" It is what is being reported by every major media source from around the world that is doing on-the-ground reporting in Ukraine. For example, here is just one news report of hundreds: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/worl ... ation.html

And your evidence that they are all universally lying about what Russia is doing is what? Your gut instinct? Do you have any reputable sources at all that provide the contrary argument that Russia conducted a free and fair referendum that was legal under international law and Ukrainian law?

[Falco Underhill]

No, they did it for force people to vote. The referendum was an act of coercion on the part of Russia. That was part of the point. To illustrate to the residents that Russia could force them to vote in favor of Russian annexation. And also to collect lists of people who opposed annexation.

That is why they went door to door which is not the normal way to conduct any sort of election. What do you think would have happened if they had just opened up polling places and asked people to come vote on their own? Few people would have done so.

This has all been exceedingly well documented. But sure, go ahead and repeat the Russian propaganda about these so-called referendums if you want.

Do you actually believe your own propaganda?

There are very numerous news reports about the referendum from reporters on the ground in all the major newspapers and media outlets from around the world. So yes. It isn't "my propaganda" It is what is being reported by every major media source from around the world that is doing on-the-ground reporting in Ukraine.

And your evidence that they are all universally lying about what Russia is doing is what? Your gut instinct? Do you have any reputable sources at all that provide the contrary argument that Russia conducted a free and fair referendum that was legal under international law and Ukrainian law?

The onus is on you to prove your own claims, not on the rest of us to disprove them. I am not claiming they are false necessarily, only that I need more proof to take them as seriously as they want us to.

The Times reports witness statements by people whose names of course have all been "withheld for their own safety."

Possible, under those circumstances, but also possible they're just making stuff up.

The picture they provide of folks voting in a mobile bus certainly doesn't show anyone being threatened in any way.

So, you don't really have any proof as far as I can tell.

[Ken]

Do you actually believe your own propaganda?

There are very numerous news reports about the referendum from reporters on the ground in all the major newspapers and media outlets from around the world. So yes. It isn't "my propaganda" It is what is being reported by every major media source from around the world that is doing on-the-ground reporting in Ukraine.

And your evidence that they are all universally lying about what Russia is doing is what? Your gut instinct? Do you have any reputable sources at all that provide the contrary argument that Russia conducted a free and fair referendum that was legal under international law and Ukrainian law?

The onus is on you to prove your own claims, not on the rest of us to disprove them. I am not claiming they are false necessarily, only that I need more proof to take them as seriously as they want us to.

The Times reports witness statements by people whose names of course have all been "withheld for their own safety."

Possible, under those circumstances, but also possible they're just making stuff up.

The picture they provide of folks voting in a mobile bus certainly doesn't show anyone being threatened in any way.

So, you don't really have any proof as far as I can tell.

Josh is the one who came here and claimed that last week's so-called referendum in Ukraine means that the population of the occupied territories actually wants to secede from Ukraine and be annexed by Russia. That was his claim. The only evidence he has for it is the sham referendum that Russia just conducted. Which every single independent news outlet everywhere in the world (outside of Russia) has reported as fraudulent.

Pick any independent news outlet that you want that covered this so-called referendum and let's look at what their coverage says. Go ahead, you pick.

How about FOX News: https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-exp ... -end-today

How about the Washington Times? https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... fter-sham/

How about CNBC? https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/28/fake-re ... ation.html

How about the Times of London? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the- ... -vjtw098m6

Go ahead, you pick your news source. Funny how they all say the same thing isn't it?

[Bootstrap]

Get real, Ken. There were probably soldiers carrying guns to protect those who were taking the referendum, that's all. (They were in a war zone, remember?) Stop drinking the cool aid.

So ... Russians don't spread propaganda, Putin does not spread propaganda, military invasions do not spread propaganda? Believing every word that Putin says and ignoring the massive destruction he has inflicted on the people of Ukraine is not "drinking the cool aid"?

Can someone explain to me how you conduct a free and fair and transparent referendum by invading a country first, then setting up and running the referendum in 5 days under wartime conditions when you do not even control all of the region you are polling? Given the importance of such a referendum, can someone explain the paper trail, how these "vote" are verified, how we can ensure that votes were not done at gunpoint?

Because if we don't want to spread propaganda and drink Putin's cool aid, these seem to be important questions to answer. I mean, it's one thing to use big words, and another to provide evidence that there was anything like a free and fair process here. Military invasions aren't always democratic or free, you know.

Mennonite war-mongering. It's a strange thing to see.

[Ken]

Can someone explain to me how you conduct a free and fair and transparent referendum by invading a country first, then setting up and running the referendum in 5 days under wartime conditions when you do not even control all of the region you are polling? Given the importance of such a referendum, can someone explain the paper trail, how these "vote" are verified, how we can ensure that votes were not done at gunpoint?
Mennonite war-mongering. It's a strange thing to see.

Here is how they do it. They count blank ballots and then report their own ridiculous made-up numbers:

[Falco Underhill]

Get real, Ken. There were probably soldiers carrying guns to protect those who were taking the referendum, that's all. (They were in a war zone, remember?) Stop drinking the cool aid.

So ... Russians don't spread propaganda, Putin does not spread propaganda, military invasions do not spread propaganda? Believing every word that Putin says and ignoring the massive destruction he has inflicted on the people of Ukraine is not "drinking the cool aid"?

Can someone explain to me how you conduct a free and fair and transparent referendum by invading a country first, then setting up and running the referendum in 5 days under wartime conditions when you do not even control all of the region you are polling? Given the importance of such a referendum, can someone explain the paper trail, how these "vote" are verified, how we can ensure that votes were not done at gunpoint?

Because if we don't want to spread propaganda and drink Putin's cool aid, these seem to be important questions to answer. I mean, it's one thing to use big words, and another to provide evidence that there was anything like a free and fair process here. Military invasions aren't always democratic or free, you know.

Mennonite war-mongering. It's a strange thing to see.

Of course Russians spread propaganda. They both do. The truth is probably somewhere in between. I concede the referendum MIGHT HAVE BEEN almost as phoney as Joe Biden's "election." I just don't buy the whole "at gun point" story. There would be absolutely no need for it if you were just going to cheat anyway and it would be extremely bad publicity.

Putin might just be as evil as some people claim, I don't know, but he isn't stupid.