Gelassenheit

[Bootstrap]

How is Gelassenheit applied:
• Those who abuse others (mentally, physically, spiritually)?
• Those who refuse admonition?
• Those who are consistently disruptive?
• Between Believers and Nonbelievers.

Maybe someone from a plain background can correct me where I'm wrong, here's my impression.

I don't think Gelassenheit is something that can be applied to other people. I'm guessing that Gelassenheit has more to do with the way you behave with respect to people you see that way.

And I don't think it's the same thing as the Ordnung, though yielding to the Ordnung is one of the ways that the word Gelassenheit is used. In some circles, at least, Gelassenheit has come to primarily mean yielding to God by yielding to the brotherhood.

Plain Mennonites and Amish do practice shunning. Do they practice shunning in a spirit of Gelassenheit and according to the Fruit of the Spirit? I think that's possible.

[Bootstrap]

Some years ago I discussed this with an Amish business owner I do business with, and he called in one of his employees, who was also one of his ministers. I did some research later, and found that the text where this word occurs in the German text does not use the Dutch counterpart in the Dutch Bible. (I am Dutch Mennonite.) Dutch has the word gelatenheid, but the Scripture text uses another word instead - leijdzaamheid.

Recently, in a gathering with her Amish relatives (the women) they were discussing the idea expressed in the PA German, as "gelossa" - letting go. This idea is also commonly expressed in the English phrase as "Let go, and let God." (At least it sounds like the same thing to me.) I think that Plautdeitsch might express this same meaning as "yalottenheid", which would mean something like "putting or letting down".

The term Gelassenheit originally meant "self-surrender, resignation, yieldedness", and it was first used by Meister Eckhart, Johannes Tauler, and Henry Suso in the context of contemplative prayer. It had two meanings in that context: (1) surrendering everything to God ("lassen") in order to become serene ("gelassen"), and (2) letting go ("loslassen") everything else that your life is focused on in order to abandon ("überlassen") yourself to God.

I think the Hutterites took that in a different direction, directing Gelassenheit toward the community as God's representative here on earth. Is that right? When I first came to MennoDiscuss, I was very familiar with Tauler and Suso, and was surprised by this difference.

I think that we also need to practice this 'surrender' in relationships with others, especially in the sense of letting go of an offense against us, perhaps a slight, or an imposition on our "rights", releasing that feeling of "righteous indignation" when taken advantage of, or otherwise disregarded.

Yes, I agree. And in general, I don't think Christians should be tearing others down or sitting in judgement over them, especially where they have no jurisdiction.

Modern culture is not a culture of Gelassenheit in any sense ... and for the most part, it's not what we embody on MN.

[Bootstrap]

Incidentally, the "Serenity Prayer" is called the Gelassenheitsgebet in German.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelassenheitsgebet

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

Here it is in German:

Gott, gib mir die Gelassenheit, Dinge hinzunehmen, die ich nicht ändern kann,
den Mut, Dinge zu ändern, die ich ändern kann,
und die Weisheit, das eine vom anderen zu unterscheiden.
Einen Tag nach dem anderen zu leben,
einen Moment nach dem anderen zu genießen.
Entbehrung als einen Weg zum Frieden zu akzeptieren.
Diese sündige Welt anzunehmen, wie Jesus es tat,
und nicht so, wie ich sie gern hätte.
Zu vertrauen, dass Du alles richtig machen wirst,
wenn ich mich Deinem Willen hingebe,
sodass ich in diesem Leben ziemlich glücklich sein möge
und im nächsten für immer überglücklich mit dir.
Amen.

[Neto]

Some years ago I discussed this with an Amish business owner I do business with, and he called in one of his employees, who was also one of his ministers. I did some research later, and found that the text where this word occurs in the German text does not use the Dutch counterpart in the Dutch Bible. (I am Dutch Mennonite.) Dutch has the word gelatenheid, but the Scripture text uses another word instead - leijdzaamheid.

Recently, in a gathering with her Amish relatives (the women) they were discussing the idea expressed in the PA German, as "gelossa" - letting go. This idea is also commonly expressed in the English phrase as "Let go, and let God." (At least it sounds like the same thing to me.) I think that Plautdeitsch might express this same meaning as "yalottenheid", which would mean something like "putting or letting down".

I think that we also need to practice this 'surrender' in relationships with others, especially in the sense of letting go of an offense against us, perhaps a slight, or an imposition on our "rights", releasing that feeling of "righteous indignation" when taken advantage of, or otherwise disregarded.

If you would be so inclined, there are a number of aspects I would like to explore on this topic.
I am interpreting the various perspectives as to avoid holding a grudge. In the Bible we are told that forgiveness and forgetting are not equivalencies. Forgive yes (let go to avoid bitterness); but Jesus also exhorts us to learn the lesson from the encounter in Matthew 10:16 (“Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves).

How is Gelassenheit applied:
• Those who abuse others (mentally, physically, spiritually)?
• Those who refuse admonition?
• Those who are consistently disruptive?
• Between Believers and Nonbelievers.

These are just a few quick scenarios. I am hoping to revive some of the excellent input from the MD thread. May those who have contributed on MD and left us rest in eternal peace.

I am perhaps not at all the best person to answer this, as I struggle a great deal with situations where "my rights" are infringed on. The worst cases are where I do not know the person at all, like when another driver cuts me off, passes me in a no-passing zone, only to soon hold up traffic to make a left turn, or like being run off of the road (literally) by a semi. (This happened to me the first time around 45 years ago. A semi pulled out to pass coming toward me on a 2 lane highway. We were coming down opposite hills. Fortunately the shoulder was wide enough that I was able to get completely off of the road w/o loosing control. Another time, probably a few years later, I was on my way home from work, about 2:00 AM. A semi was following me close, apparently thinking he could push me to go over the speed limit. He finally passed, and then slammed on his brakes. There were three of us in the front seat, and by the time I looked forward and saw what was happening, I had the feeling that the hood of my car was almost under the rear of the semi trailer. I could go on, but you get the idea.)

So I ask myself, Why do I so easily get drawn into a response of resentment & anger in those situations. I think it may have something to do with the fact that I was bullied a lot when I was growing up, first by my older brother, and then by classmates in the public school. I don't know if the restraints against fighting back put on us by our parents made this worse, or not. My brother the bully fought back all of the time. He would get in trouble at home if our parents found out, but they didn't always know, and he didn't seem to care. The other kids at school "respected" him, maybe that was all that mattered to him. (To be fair, one of my classmates who had pestered me for years, perhaps knowing that i wouldn't fight back, in our senior year told me that "We have finally become friends - let's keep it that way." We actually HAD been good friends in 1st grade, but somewhere along the line it all went south, so to speak.)

Saturday there was a big "doings" here in town, and someone (actually two vehicles, one with a trailer attached) parked in front of the garage of the apartment out of which I operate my business. I didn't need to get out, but the fact that I couldn't have gotten out bugged me. I didn't think about it Saturday night, or during the day on Sunday, but as I went to bed, it boiled up in me. I had to fight it repeatedly, actively forgiving these unknown people who had "infringed on my rights w/o even asking".

So, I'll basically just add my question to yours - How do you get past the past? How do you deal with the underlying feelings of inferiority that pop up when someone shows disrespect toward you? (I think, at least, that the key may lie in working through those old hurts, the ones from childhood, when even my loving parents didn't understand, and didn't defend me. I think this was due to me being a very different personality than my older siblings, and maybe also different than either of my parents. Some years ago, but not a lot of years, my mom sent me a birthday card that said "I love you for just who you are." That brought tears to my eyes then, and again now, just thinking of it. I do not know if she consciously thought of that when she picked that card, but I will always keep it, because she once told me "Why can't you be more like ____?" - my older brother who was always bullying me. In fact, although I am past retirement age, he still tends to do that.) But I don't think I hold any bitterness toward any of those people - it's just the "feeling-response" that comes when I go through something like that again.

[MaxPC]

So, I'll basically just add my question to yours - How do you get past the past? How do you deal with the underlying feelings of inferiority that pop up when someone shows disrespect toward you? ... But I don't think I hold any bitterness toward any of those people - it's just the "feeling-response" that comes when I go through something like that again.

In my experiences, the "feeling-response" reaction is part of our survival programming that is God-given. It kept our ancestors safe by learning through negative experiences in a less than civilized world and will always be a part of our makeup. Those emotions of anger and fear are meant to cement the dangerous experiences into memory for survival.

Once those reactions are framed into their proper context, we can proceed to say, "What have I learned from this?" and let go of the emotional bits. Rehearsing the negative feelings as a personal affront can lead to bitterness. Conversely, framing the information as a cognitive experience of cause and effect (rather than a personal emotional experience) helps survival without causing bitterness.

Passing along the knowledge of that experience to others so that they too, may remain safe is part of that cognitive framing. Sharing the experiences does not always mean that bitterness is present and that too, needs to be remembered in order to learn from those who have gone before us and are attempting to keep others safe.

In short, the past provides lessons that are sometimes accompanied by intense emotions. If we hold to the lessons of the past without holding onto the intense emotions that brought the lessons to our attention, we can hold onto the past lessons without letting the emotions warp our spirit and our discipleship.

Such has been my experiences.

[Neto]

So, I'll basically just add my question to yours - How do you get past the past? How do you deal with the underlying feelings of inferiority that pop up when someone shows disrespect toward you? ... But I don't think I hold any bitterness toward any of those people - it's just the "feeling-response" that comes when I go through something like that again.

In my experiences, the "feeling-response" reaction is part of our survival programming that is God-given. It kept our ancestors safe by learning through negative experiences in a less than civilized world and will always be a part of our makeup. Those emotions of anger and fear are meant to cement the dangerous experiences into memory for survival.

Once those reactions are framed into their proper context, we can proceed to say, "What have I learned from this?" and let go of the emotional bits. Rehearsing the negative feelings as a personal affront can lead to bitterness. Conversely, framing the information as a cognitive experience of cause and effect (rather than a personal emotional experience) helps survival without causing bitterness.

Passing along the knowledge of that experience to others so that they too, may remain safe is part of that cognitive framing. Sharing the experiences does not always mean that bitterness is present and that too, needs to be remembered in order to learn from those who have gone before us and are attempting to keep others safe.

In short, the past provides lessons that are sometimes accompanied by intense emotions. If we hold to the lessons of the past without holding onto the intense emotions that brought the lessons to our attention, we can hold onto the past lessons without letting the emotions warp our spirit and our discipleship.

Such has been my experiences.

So would you say that our possible method of dealing with these responses starts with accepting the feeling, then dealing with it to bypass the ill effects of it w/o ridding oneself of the response itself - that is, do you think it is not possible to avoid this response, or even unwise to attempt to do so?

[MaxPC]

So, I'll basically just add my question to yours - How do you get past the past? How do you deal with the underlying feelings of inferiority that pop up when someone shows disrespect toward you? ... But I don't think I hold any bitterness toward any of those people - it's just the "feeling-response" that comes when I go through something like that again.

In my experiences, the "feeling-response" reaction is part of our survival programming that is God-given. It kept our ancestors safe by learning through negative experiences in a less than civilized world and will always be a part of our makeup. Those emotions of anger and fear are meant to cement the dangerous experiences into memory for survival.

Once those reactions are framed into their proper context, we can proceed to say, "What have I learned from this?" and let go of the emotional bits. Rehearsing the negative feelings as a personal affront can lead to bitterness. Conversely, framing the information as a cognitive experience of cause and effect (rather than a personal emotional experience) helps survival without causing bitterness.

Passing along the knowledge of that experience to others so that they too, may remain safe is part of that cognitive framing. Sharing the experiences does not always mean that bitterness is present and that too, needs to be remembered in order to learn from those who have gone before us and are attempting to keep others safe.

In short, the past provides lessons that are sometimes accompanied by intense emotions. If we hold to the lessons of the past without holding onto the intense emotions that brought the lessons to our attention, we can hold onto the past lessons without letting the emotions warp our spirit and our discipleship.

Such has been my experiences.

So would you say that our possible method of dealing with these responses starts with accepting the feeling, then dealing with it to bypass the ill effects of it w/o ridding oneself of the response itself - that is, do you think it is not possible to avoid this response, or even unwise to attempt to do so?

In my experiences, that may vary from individual to individual. I am not trying to muddy your question; merely trying to be grounded in reality as much as is possible. The more experienced the individual is in dealing with sudden emotional episodes (anger, fear), the more likely the individual will be successful in exercising control over the emotional aspects and rely on the cognitive framing.

If you will pardon the comparison, I liken it to the battle experience of a soldier as it can easily convey the intensity of an emotional, adrenaline-filled scenario. The battlefield is replete with dangers, threats to life and the need to think on one's feet. E.g.

The less experienced soldier will struggle with this intense, emotional and hormonal onslaught. Confusion, fear and anger become the mode in which the inexperienced soldier may operate.

The more experienced soldier will have more mastery of the adrenaline flood and focus upon the survival task from a more cognitively-based, problem solving mode. He has had training and multiple opportunities to confront situations that can elicit the hormonal flood that induces fear.

As with any skill, practice improves the performance. I suppose you could call it recognition of the neurotransmitter sequence of anger and fear and the conscious decision to compartmentalise it and to choose instead to function from a cognitive base.

These are generalisations of behavioral observations. Mileage will vary based upon whether the individual has an underlying medical history, behavioral history that involved trauma, etc. which in turn, can impact the ability to switch into a more cognitive behavioral approach to a threat.

[mennonitemom1]

https://youtu.be/zh-yFXbe2UA

[Sudsy]

https://youtu.be/zh-yFXbe2UA

I enjoyed this. To me, this is called 'walking in the Spirit'. It is not withdrawal from troubles but rather being engaged with the world as the Spirit leads us to be. I will watch it again. Thankyou.