Farewell, MCUSA

[Ken]

Look at how much abuse and sexual dysfunction exists in the Amish and plain Menno community if recent news and documentaries and statistics are to be believed. And these are mostly straight people who have legitimate outlets for their desires.

No, they are not “mostly straight”. The three most notorious to come to light in the past few years - Mast, McGrath, and Herr - all were oriented towards young adolescent boys.

I’m talking about the general reports of widespread abuse within the Amish community and statistics like those cited in another thread that 1 in 6 Amish and CA women have been victims of rape or abuse. I don’t think it is lesbians that are doing all that rape and abuse. It is men.

If Amish and CA sexual dysfunction was a gay issue then it would only be boys who were at risk of abuse. It is actually the opposite. While boys do also get abused, it seems like girls are at much higher risk.

[Pelerin]

Explain more what you mean by “transitional” if you would.

Over the decades, they begin thinking things or doing things that they didn't used to think or do.

In that sense then, almost all churches are transitional. The world changes and new challenges come up that earlier generations didn’t have to think about. Many churches review their standards from time to time: For example, does our standard on clothes still best reflect our views on modesty? Even if the answer is, “yes, here in 2022, it does,” that reflection and renewal is still a transition in thinking. I’d bet if you could interview someone who wrote the standards in 1922, what they say and their reasons for them would sound different than someone in 2022*. But inevitably sometimes the answer will be no, it doesn’t.

Even the church that plants it’s flag in the ground and says, “we will not be moved from here,” has transitioned. “We’re not moving,” is a different way of thinking than what brought them to “here” in the first place.

*As an aside, maybe it would be a good practice for churches to occasionally collect members’ thoughts on how they view the standards (and other things) and archive them. It could help later generations classify their own thinking and might even recover some good thoughts that would otherwise be lost.

[Pelerin]

As I said earlier, churches that are counter-culture don't always have generation gap. I remember as a youth that onlookers marveled how that our conference did not have a generation gap. (There were a few slight changes but very little. If anything the conference keeps inching toward a more conservative position on many practical issues.

And maybe to follow up: how does your conference include the youth in these discussions? If there’s a slight trend to more conservative application embraced by the youth, that would say to me that young people are actively thinking about how to apply the church’s principles in a slightly different context than their parents’ context. And I’d guess the way they describe the application and the reasons for it would be different than their parents would have at the same age.

[PetrChelcicky]

Treating gayness from a strictly mundane point of view, I am prepared to take Ken's objections seriously. However, I think that he is wrong in some ways.
1. There is no reason to believe that homosexuality is innate. I think that it is wicked to confront pre-puberty youths with the idea that they "are" (have to identify as) gay or straight.
2. Why do the numbers of people who identify as LGBTQ raise so much? Mostly not because there are so much more gays, but because "bisexual" is now included - and for the young, "bisexual" means "I don't have to decide". Even most twens don't think that they need a life-long commitment, so why tie oneself down to such a decision?
3. Ken's recommendation for a time of "rumspringa including gay experiences" is not bad. It would help people getting a realist view and losing some illusions. The "repressed gay man" is often a man who secretly has developped exaggerated ideas about what he has missed (the gay life on the whole and his own opportunities and successes in the gay scene). Let him make his experiences and he will see things more in perspective: You can't have anything at the same time and perhaps, on the long run, other things are more important for you than the gay life (which you may look at as an interesting episode).

[ohio jones]

In my (limited) experience, CMC churches tend to be more rural. Looking at the map of churches on the CMC web site I see none in any cities larger than Lancaster and mostly in small towns.

[temporal1]

PetrC:
.. (which you may look at as an interesting episode).

and which a young woman of your serious interest, and her family, might view as a deal-breaker.
of course, people lie. not a good foundation, but common.

i’ve wondered how respectable/self-respecting young adults will find one another in this hyper-sexualized culture of “anything goes.”

On this forum, many have similar expectations for their sons’ responsible behavior as their daughters’.

i have to admit, i consider it nothing short of a miracle that my son found his precious wife on the west coast.
i always trusted my son to choose good relationships, of all descriptions. when he told me about her, i knew i would love her.
(neither grew up there.)

[temporal1]

In my (limited) experience, CMC churches tend to be more rural. Looking at the map of churches on the CMC web site I see none in any cities larger than Lancaster and mostly in small towns.

Page 16:

2. I tend to take people at their word in most things.

Of course, not conservative Christians, or anyone attempting to exist without benefit of an IV-drip of whatever prevailing lib narrative. That would be ludicrous.

Ken,
maybe this might help you? (not that i presume you are interested in anyone’s help.)

members on this forum have not somehow missed the lib narrative (on anything). not at all.
many know it well, have thoughtfully considered it, esp referring to scriptures for guidance, then thoughtfully reject a lot of it,
if not more than a lot.

you have not found a group of folks hungering for rarefied lib wisdom.

the better question might be: how can it possibly be avoided??!

[Josh]

Look at how much abuse and sexual dysfunction exists in the Amish and plain Menno community if recent news and documentaries and statistics are to be believed. And these are mostly straight people who have legitimate outlets for their desires.

No, they are not “mostly straight”. The three most notorious to come to light in the past few years - Mast, McGrath, and Herr - all were oriented towards young adolescent boys.

I’m talking about the general reports of widespread abuse within the Amish community and statistics like those cited in another thread that 1 in 6 Amish and CA women have been victims of rape or abuse. I don’t think it is lesbians that are doing all that rape and abuse. It is men.

If Amish and CA sexual dysfunction was a gay issue then it would only be boys who were at risk of abuse. It is actually the opposite. While boys do also get abused, it seems like girls are at much higher risk.

In reports elsewhere, the average woman in America has a 1 in 5 chance of being a victim of rape or abuse, so by this standard, Amish are somehow “better” than society at large.

[ken_sylvania]

But that isn’t usually how it happens. I would suggest that this narrative is extremely rare. The far more common narrative is for people growing up in an intolerant community to live repressed lives by default, not by a thought-out decision they have made as older adults. And then eventually they find that they can’t keep up the pretense. I have seen that happen multiple times and it is far more common. There is no option in conservative Christian society for young gay people do as your story suggests and live for a time in some sort of “Gay Rumspringa” and then come back to the church and straight life after they have gotten it all “out of their system” and are ready to settle down and live straight married lives.

I have three daughters and I would far more rather have them date and marry normal straight guys than to accidentally marry a repressed gay guy and have the marriage blow up years later when he finds he can’t keep pretending anymore and wants to explore his other side. That is the far more common narrative.

Should society then also make sure to remove the stigma associated with unnatural desire toward children or animals? Your logic seems to suggest that this would help to ensure that none of your daughters married a repressed pedophile or zoophile.

Also I have never seen anything to suggest that sin is something that a person "gets out of their system" and that afterward it is easier to settle down and live a righteous life. Quite the opposite in fact.

[Sliceitup]

Treating gayness from a strictly mundane point of view, I am prepared to take Ken's objections seriously. However, I think that he is wrong in some ways.
1. There is no reason to believe that homosexuality is innate. I think that it is wicked to confront pre-puberty youths with the idea that they "are" (have to identify as) gay or straight.
2. Why do the numbers of people who identify as LGBTQ raise so much? Mostly not because there are so much more gays, but because "bisexual" is now included - and for the young, "bisexual" means "I don't have to decide". Even most twens don't think that they need a life-long commitment, so why tie oneself down to such a decision?
3. Ken's recommendation for a time of "rumspringa including gay experiences" is not bad. It would help people getting a realist view and losing some illusions. The "repressed gay man" is often a man who secretly has developped exaggerated ideas about what he has missed (the gay life on the whole and his own opportunities and successes in the gay scene). Let him make his experiences and he will see things more in perspective: You can't have anything at the same time and perhaps, on the long run, other things are more important for you than the gay life (which you may look at as an interesting episode).

Is there a reason why you think it is not innate?