Farewell, MCUSA

[Ken]

Gay folks are going to be in your families and in your churches. That is inevitable. It is going to happen. It is unrealistic and utterly hypocritical to expect them to live like monks or cloistered nuns when we don't have that same expectation for everyone else.

Do you think it is unrealistic and utterly hypocritical to expect people who are tempted with gay inclinations to live celibately?

I heard a talk by a former practicing lesbian who, after repenting and becoming a believer, eventually married, and had children with her husband. He knew before they married that she didn't experience a deep attraction toward him in a sexual way, and she admitted that she still felt attraction toward other women, but she had dedicated her life to follow in the way of Christ, so she pushed those feeling aside. She said that while she didn't feel the romantic (sexually charged) attraction for her husband that is commonly expected, she loved him, and was devoted and loyal to him, considering him her closest friend. Infatuations often don't last anyway, so a marriage needs to be founded on a DECISION, not a feeling of attraction, or "getting the butterflies".

But that isn’t usually how it happens. I would suggest that this narrative is extremely rare. The far more common narrative is for people growing up in an intolerant community to live repressed lives by default, not by a thought-out decision they have made as older adults. And then eventually they find that they can’t keep up the pretense. I have seen that happen multiple times and it is far more common. There is no option in conservative Christian society for young gay people do as your story suggests and live for a time in some sort of “Gay Rumspringa” and then come back to the church and straight life after they have gotten it all “out of their system” and are ready to settle down and live straight married lives.

I have three daughters and I would far more rather have them date and marry normal straight guys than to accidentally marry a repressed gay guy and have the marriage blow up years later when he finds he can’t keep pretending anymore and wants to explore his other side. That is the far more common narrative.

And, in any event, think of what you are saying. In this marriage you describe the husband has a wife who isn’t going to satisfy him sexually. Ever. How is that going to work out for him? Is he going to eventually have affairs on the side? Use porn? Or live a celibate life too? Perhaps if they are getting married later in life it might be easier. But I don’t see this sort of arrangement being promising for say an 18 year old or 22 year old who is facing a lifetime of celibacy. Don’t tell me that conservative Christians don’t find outlets for their sexual desires. We all know it happens.

[temporal1]

its hard to find reputable studies on the pharmaceuticals in the water... We also have plastic that mimics estrogen so... lots of interacting factors that could be connected. The simple end result though is that people can be predisposed to certain sins, but that does not mean the sin is irresistible.

Thanks. i don’t disagree.
i was aiming to suggest, for those composing such a document, and for those taking it seriously enough to vote on it,
there must be mind—altering toxins in the water supply.

i believe this regarding numerous inexplicable “problems” garnering majority airtime in mainstream media.
theater of the absurd.

Ken:
.. it is unrealistic to expect gay folks to to live celibate and closeted lives in a world and community in which strait folks are not expected to do any of those things. ..

Continued refusal to “read the room.”

[Neto]

Do you think it is unrealistic and utterly hypocritical to expect people who are tempted with gay inclinations to live celibately?

I heard a talk by a former practicing lesbian who, after repenting and becoming a believer, eventually married, and had children with her husband. He knew before they married that she didn't experience a deep attraction toward him in a sexual way, and she admitted that she still felt attraction toward other women, but she had dedicated her life to follow in the way of Christ, so she pushed those feeling aside. She said that while she didn't feel the romantic (sexually charged) attraction for her husband that is commonly expected, she loved him, and was devoted and loyal to him, considering him her closest friend. Infatuations often don't last anyway, so a marriage needs to be founded on a DECISION, not a feeling of attraction, or "getting the butterflies".

But that isn’t usually how it happens. I would suggest that this narrative is extremely rare. The far more common narrative is for people growing up in an intolerant community to live repressed lives by default, not by a thought-out decision they have made as older adults. And then eventually they find that they can’t keep up the pretense. I have seen that happen multiple times and it is far more common. There is no option in conservative Christian society for young gay people do as your story suggests and live for a time in some sort of “Gay Rumspringa” and then come back to the church and straight life after they have gotten it all “out of their system” and are ready to settle down and live straight married lives.

I have three daughters and I would far more rather have them date and marry normal straight guys than to accidentally marry a repressed gay guy and have the marriage blow up years later when he finds he can’t keep pretending anymore and wants to explore his other side. That is the far more common narrative.

And, in any event, think of what you are saying. In this marriage you describe the husband has a wife who isn’t going to satisfy him sexually. Ever. How is that going to work out for him? Is he going to eventually have affairs on the side? Use porn? Or live a celibate life too? Perhaps if they are getting married later in life it might be easier. But I don’t see this sort of arrangement being promising for say an 18 year old or 22 year old who is facing a lifetime of celibacy. Don’t tell me that conservative Christians don’t find outlets for their sexual desires. We all know it happens.

Sorry for writing such a long post, but I can tell that you didn't read it all. According to what she said, & her husband are sexually active (I mentioned that she had borne children with her husband.), and he went into it knowing her temptations. He loves her, and she loves him. What percentage of stable marriages do you think base their concept of the union on what "the sex" is like? I would say that that sort of expectation (the hot chick wife) is what leads some husbands to leave their wives, and go out looking for the "newer model". That is a selfish attitude, not a dedicated personal relationship.

[Sudsy]

A few thoughts on the MCUSA decision -

Wouldn't it be shocking if we come to find out that the apostle Paul had abnormal sexual temptations that was his 'thorn in the flesh'. Paul referred to this 'thorn' as a messenger from satan that came to harass him and so I think it possible that this had to do with Paul's thoughts. I don't think anyone can say they know exactly what this 'thorn' was. Whatever it was, Paul prayed it would be taken away but God did not do it. Instead He assured Paul that God's grace would be sufficient to deal with this issue as God's power was made perfect in weakness. Paul then took this as a positive condition that he would even delight in, this 'thorn', as it was one of many trials in his life that could make Paul spiritually strong.

Jesus said to look on a woman with lust is committing adultery. I don't doubt some Christians have big struggles with what goes on in their mind that could be lusting. Many have confessed their viewing of porn and how they give into those mind enticements. Some pray about this often but it continues to draw them in their thoughts. So what to do about this adultery ? I believe the way to handle this sinning is to realize there are some things we just are going to have to live with and believe the power of God is made perfect in our weaknesses. Lean (be filled constantly) on the power of the Holy Spirit to not give way to the desires of the flesh.

To me, this is the message and support Christians should have for each other. Not to accommodate sin but to experience the grace of God to be an overcomer of sin and experience God's power being made perfect by our weaknesses. Some of us may have short tempers or like to verbally fight or some other sins and the solution is always the same. Walk in the Spirit. Imo, too much human reasonings causes results such as the solution that MCUSA came up with. One is not guided by the Spirit just because they are a believer but it seems many believe that and perhaps don't realize they have tuned out the Spirit's voice. I know I certainly don't listen to Him enough.

Anyway, I just can't see where the Holy Spirit was involved in this decision. I wonder how much prayer and fasting was made by the 55% group. Guess we'll never know.

Now back to dealing with my own issues. Not !

[ohio jones]

Ken:
.. it is unrealistic to expect gay folks to to live celibate and closeted lives in a world and community in which strait folks are not expected to do any of those things. ..

Continued refusal to “read the room.”

Continued unbelief in the power of God to save from sin.

[temporal1]

Ken:
.. it is unrealistic to expect gay folks to to live celibate and closeted lives in a world and community in which strait folks are not expected to do any of those things. ..

Continued refusal to “read the room.”

Continued unbelief in the power of God to save from sin.

[temporal1]

Sorry for writing such a long post, but I can tell that you didn't read it all. According to what she said, & her husband are sexually active (I mentioned that she had borne children with her husband.), and he went into it knowing her temptations. He loves her, and she loves him.

What percentage of stable marriages do you think base their concept of the union on what "the sex" is like? I would say that that sort of expectation (the hot chick wife) is what leads some husbands to leave their wives, and go out looking for the "newer model".

That is a selfish attitude, not a dedicated personal relationship.

You’ve touched on something that struck me early-on, when spouses leaving spouses for same sex partners became a public discussion. My first response was, what about promises of fidelity? Do marriage vows have an unwritten exception, “forsaking all others,” UNLESS they are same sex, then, you know, all bets are off.

The entitlement involved!

[Ken]

Ken:
.. it is unrealistic to expect gay folks to to live celibate and closeted lives in a world and community in which strait folks are not expected to do any of those things. ..

Continued refusal to “read the room.”

Continued unbelief in the power of God to save from sin.

Oh, I know what room I’m in. I’m just suggesting I think you are unrealistic to think it will work. Look at how much abuse and sexual dysfunction exists in the Amish and plain Menno community if recent news and documentaries and statistics are to be believed. And these are mostly straight people who have legitimate outlets for their desires. To expect gay people to live like saints when absolutely no one else does is simply unrealistic in my mind. And isn’t going to end up working. No matter how much you try to “pray away the gay”

We have freedom of religion in this country and people are free to establish whatever standards they want for belief and conduct within their faith. I have no argument with any of that. But if you are going to structure your faith around strict adherence to straight norms and straight life with no tolerance for gays you are either going to (1) drive gay people out of the faith, or (2) generate long-term dysfunction and problems for those who remain that will spillover onto their families. I expect the number of long-term success stories is going to be a small fraction of the total. They exist of course. You can find examples. But I doubt they will be the majority.

[temporal1]

.. But I doubt they will be the majority.

Wait. What?
We have minority rules, the majority is always evil, not nuanced, intrinsically wrong!

Until .. the minority squeaks by a majority, then: majority rules, you clowns!

Mind and hormone altering drugs in the water supply.

[Ken]

.. But I doubt they will be the majority.

Wait. What?
We have minority rules, the majority is always evil, not nuanced, intrinsically wrong!

Until .. the minority squeaks by a majority, then: majority rules, you clowns!

Mind and hormone altering drugs in the water supply.

It isn’t about voting.

I’m simply saying that a majority of people (straight or gay) are going to be unable or unwilling to commit to a life of celibacy at age 18. Some will. We do have nuns, monks, and priests in the world. They do exist. But they are a small minority. And even they often aren’t successful at maintaining that life judging by how many priest sex scandals we have had over the years and how many people have left the priesthood and other celibate religious orders over the years.