Farewell, MCUSA

[Robert]

I'm not one of these people who thinks sexuality or gender orientation needs to be celebrated or addressed in church whether one is gay or straight. So I think all this "affirmational" stuff is a bit much. I don't think affirming the sex drives of any members has much place in church whether they are gay or straight. There might be a time and place for it but I don't think it is Sunday morning. But I'm also straight so I don't think it is my place to be judgmental towards those who are not. And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

I appreciate your honesty and openness, but there is much here I disagree with, yet it is way off topic so I will leave it with that.

[Bootstrap]

In my observation, it's the "independent" ones (whether individuals or congregations) that tend to become unbalanced in one way or another. I think it's really important to network with others who can provide accountability and resources and continuity. You might say it's one of my corps values.

I agree. It's not enough to say "come out", a local congregation needs to figure out who they are in fellowship with.

[HondurasKeiser]

So is engaging in homosexual practices sinful?

But I'm also straight so I don't think it is my place to be judgmental towards those who are not. And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

I believe that any sort of sexual fantasy or activity, (outside of a loving relationship (between a legitimately married biological male and a biological female) is sin. I think there is good scriptural support for this position.

Do you agree with this?

I would agree, Ernie. No one on the traditionalist side is saying some sinful sexual practices should be overlooked or are unimportant. Indeed, I would never say that greed should be celebrated or minimized or rationalized. If I am sinning and doing any of those things, I would hope my church fellowship would call me to account. Ken is throwing up a lot of examples of sin, that I think the rest of us agree, are in fact sin. I'm unclear thought about 2 things in his argument.
1. Should the local fellowship do anything about those many examples of sin that he's given us?
2. Is sex between 2 members of the same sex always sinful?

[ohio jones]

In my observation, it's the "independent" ones (whether individuals or congregations) that tend to become unbalanced in one way or another. I think it's really important to network with others who can provide accountability and resources and continuity. You might say it's one of my corps values.

I agree. It's not enough to say "come out", a local congregation needs to figure out who they are in fellowship with.

I'm not sure "come out" is the best choice of words here; people on both sides of the issue are advocating that, with completely different meanings.

[steve-in-kville]

From greed & wealth... to homosexuality. Only here.

Come for the replies, stay for the plot

[Ken]

I'm not one of these people who thinks sexuality or gender orientation needs to be celebrated or addressed in church whether one is gay or straight. So I think all this "affirmational" stuff is a bit much. I don't think affirming the sex drives of any members has much place in church whether they are gay or straight. There might be a time and place for it but I don't think it is Sunday morning. But I'm also straight so I don't think it is my place to be judgmental towards those who are not. And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

I appreciate your honesty and openness, but there is much here I disagree with, yet it is way off topic so I will leave it with that.

How is this off topic? This thread is exactly about the policy of MCUSA towards LGBT members which is exactly what I am talking about in this post.

I’m not attending a MCUSA church anymore so I don’t know exactly what they are doing. And I expect each church is different. But if they are pride weeks and celebrating sexuality in church I think that is over the top and not the role of church. But neither do I think being gay is a reason to be excluded or excommunicated.

[HondurasKeiser]

I'm not one of these people who thinks sexuality or gender orientation needs to be celebrated or addressed in church whether one is gay or straight. So I think all this "affirmational" stuff is a bit much. I don't think affirming the sex drives of any members has much place in church whether they are gay or straight. There might be a time and place for it but I don't think it is Sunday morning. But I'm also straight so I don't think it is my place to be judgmental towards those who are not. And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

I appreciate your honesty and openness, but there is much here I disagree with, yet it is way off topic so I will leave it with that.

How is this off topic? This thread is exactly about the policy of MCUSA towards LGBT members which is exactly what I am talking about in this post.

I’m not attending a MCUSA church anymore so I don’t know exactly what they are doing. And I expect each church is different. But if they are pride weeks and celebrating sexuality in church I think that is over the top and not the role of church. But neither do I think being gay is a reason to be excluded or excommunicated.

We can quibble over terminology but 'being gay' is not the same thing as engaging in gay sex. I can't speak for the CA's here but my congregation would have no problem including in membership and communicating with (in the theological sense) gay folk that are celibate. Indeed, that's been the posture of MCUSA for its entire existence as far as I can tell. What's been pushed by Pink Menno, Young Anabaptist Radicals and others like SZD's friends is that there is nothing wrong with gay monogamous, romantic, sexual relationships. That's what we in the conservative camp see as a normalization and celebration of sin. Inasmuch as we haven't been the one pushing this envelope, rather the drive for change has come from Pink Menno and others, its intellectually dishonest to suggest that Jesus is saddened by us 'splitting the Church' over such a 'non-issue'.

[Ken]

So is engaging in homosexual practices sinful?

But I'm also straight so I don't think it is my place to be judgmental towards those who are not. And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

I believe that any sort of sexual fantasy or activity, (outside of a loving relationship (between a legitimately married biological male and a biological female) is sin. I think there is good scriptural support for this position.

Do you agree with this?

No I don’t agree.

By this definition pretty much every teenage boy gay or straight is sinning for most of his waking hours. And a whole lot of teenage girls as well.

I think like anything else there is a healthy level of sexual interest or attraction and an unhealthy level.

If my daughter is interested in boys and spends time each morning trying to look good because…boys. That’s fine and normal. On the other hand, if she gets obsessed to the point that her grades suffer, her other relationships suffer, or she obsesses about a particular boy who doesn’t reciprocate then that’s unhealthy.

[ken_sylvania]

And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

No, Jesus would not have split his church apart over this issue, but he would have split his church away from the world over the issue.

As Paul wrote to the Corinthians "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

[Sudsy]

I initiated a conversation with one of our church elders about our congregation changing affiliations and not being part of MC-USA. He will first read the passed documents and consider the nuances.

'Come out from among them' and be independent of affiliations and all these man made divisions and coalitions. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

As Paul told the Corinthians to knock it off with being a follower of this guy or that guy rather focus on following Christ. Many Anabaptists seem to have ignored Paul's direction to not be an 'ite' of some man associated with their beginnings. Perhaps this disobedience is sin in itself.

So let’s contribute to the problem by becoming a denomination unto ourselves? We can’t unify with any existing church because of our insistence that others are too far off from our “truth”, and this way we can make the claim that there is too much division.
I’m not against dividing. But I can’t take seriously anyone who grumps about it, and then, in this era and land of unprecedented church options, refuses to find a church to join because they are too proud, or stubborn, or too theologically specialized, or whatever other reason they come up with.

Why become a 'denomination' at all ? Why not just return to the NT pattern of churches by location only ? I believe where 'two or three are gathered together in Jesus name' they are a local church. There is no NT pattern either of 'joining a church' in the sense man has made it, imo. I have joined in fellowship with many believers in various local churches and became an active 'adherent' although we did not agree in all areas of doctrine and/or practise but have a common relationship of brothers and sisters in Christ seeking to better understand how best to follow the Lord. As we see in Romans 14 they did not all practise their faith the same way yet they were in the same fellowship.

I did not join in formal membership with the churches I have fellowshipped in however, I do believe in engaging with other believers and have to further the Kingdom. It has been quite a journey to fellowship with those of doctrine and practise different from my own and enjoy the oneness there is in being a born again child of God.

I think Carey Nieuwhof makes a couple good points on why to attend a church -
https://careynieuwhof.com/why-attending ... kes-sense/

1) We are the Church and go from being a consumer to being a contributor. You don’t just go to be served, you go to serve.
2) Secondly, a compelling reason to attend a Sunday morning gathering is to bring a friend with you or because you are exploring Christianity.

I admit that when I quit going to the MB church at the outbreak of Covid I was a consumer and not a contributor. Surveys point that this is quite common for those who haven't returned to their local church. They can 'do church' as a consumer with far more options to pick from over the TV and Internet. Many people came to realize during this pandemic when they couldn't go to church that they were a consumer and not a contributor.

My guess is that there will be those who leave the MCUSA because they were consumers only and likely will not go looking for another place to be a consumer with the access we have today to stay at home and be consumers only.