Farewell, MCUSA

[steve-in-kville]

I have much more often heard the caution that family time is worth more than money and that it would be better to pass up opportunities to make a lot of money if they will interfere with a father's ability to be home with his family daily.
[/quote]

My current fellowship really pushes this point home, and I'm glad. To that end, our deacon body is quite generous in seeing that needs are met as well.

[temporal1]

Did you hear sermons that implored the love of industry, above family, above faith? (i haven’t.)

Almost.
We were in an environment that endorsed working crazy amounts of overtime, breeding dogs plus whatever "side hustle" you could do to make money. If a married man wasn't worth $100K by age thirty, you were doing it wrong.

i’ve not been drawn into this thinking, i’m vaguely aware of “prosperity gospel,” and, it’s known, entire chuches can be misled.
The path is narrow.

Christians are vulnerable to guilt trips. It goes hand-in-hand. It’s easily exploited, evil moves right in.
Guilt trips can become narcissistic. “What about me?” “What have i done?” When self-centeredness becomes a useful cover to normalize sin, even to embrace it and propagate it, it’s time to rethink.

It’s best to tune out human reasoning, all seductive lies, immerse in scriptures, pray for the Holy Spirit ..
read it and weep.

God collects our tears.
He has many of mine! i would not want to have missed the pain of facing Truth, nor the comfort repentance offers promises.
Even at my years, this is not past-tense. It’s ongoing, every single day. Life is tough, be grateful for blessings, expect pain.

Psalm 56:8
https://biblehub.com/psalms/56-8.htm

Be Merciful to Me, O God

…7In spite of such sin, will they escape?
In Your anger, O God, cast down the nations.

8You have taken account of my wanderings. Put my tears in Your bottle— are they not in Your book?

9Then my enemies will retreat on the day I cry for help.
By this I will know that God is on my side.…

i’m not an expert on anything, i haven’t studied Klimt or this painting. ^^

but thinking of this thread, how fascinating this obviously worldly woman’s tears are: of gold.
all the earthly things we love will flow out of our eyes in tears+regrets, sorrows. we need to understand this.

God’s plan. God uses pain to draw us closer to Him. the very BEST place to be.

[HondurasKeiser]

There are plenty of churches that are just fine with wealthy members who devote their lives to acquisition, building businesses, expanding farms, etc. And who celebrate and promote such individuals into positions of church leadership. They don’t call it greed. They use other euphemisms like “work ethic”

Is work ethic necessarily greed?

My point isn't to criticize him. But to point out that I think there is a lot of hypocrisy when we pick and choose which sins to make a stand over. Jesus didn't say that gays won't enter the Kingdom of God. He said the rich man won't enter the Kingdom of God. There are a lot of very rich Mennonites out there. And we tend to put them into positions of respect and authority. And use all kinds of euphemisms to talk around the subject rather than the correct words like "rich man" and "greed".

So is engaging in homosexual practices sinful?

[HondurasKeiser]

[

It can be. How much is "enough"? I have some Menno relatives who own large business. One cousin, for example, owns fleets of trucks and a construction business and seems to spend 60-70 hours a week running and building the businesses instead of time with his family and doing God's work. He is successful and they keep expanding and taking on more. I have no idea what his financials look like but the value of the businesses is probably pushing 8 figures by now.

My point isn't to criticize him. But to point out that I think there is a lot of hypocrisy when we pick and choose which sins to make a stand over. Jesus didn't say that gays won't enter the Kingdom of God. He said the rich man won't enter the Kingdom of God. There are a lot of very rich Mennonites out there. And we tend to put them into positions of respect and authority. And use all kinds of euphemisms to talk around the subject rather than the correct words like "rich man" and "greed".

I am loosely following this thread, so I am no expert. But Ken makes a good point. We tend to cherry pick what's a super huge big deal and what is not. I've heard it preached over the pulpit numerous times that it is good for a man to be "industrious" often at the expense of family time. That never ends well... I learned that lesson the hard way...

Well if that's the case - if you're hearing sin celebrated from the pulpit, do something about it. Ken's point seems to be though that because some Mennos, somewhere, maybe even his cousin, are acquisitive; then we are hypocrites if we also don't celebrate homosexual relationships and transgenderism.

[Robert]

Is work ethic necessarily greed?

It is only greed when you are not tithing and helping others with your abundance. It is not greed to prosper. It is what you do with your prosperity that matters. Scripture is full of people who are faithful and have prospered. Suggesting that someone is greedy just because they have is a distortion of scripture and could in a small way be blaspheming the abundance of the Holy Spirit in someone's life.

John 10:10. Live it!

[nett]

Please tone down your gatekeeping, and self-righteousness, and then read your post back to yourself, but change out LGBT for pedophilia, or beastiality.

Temp insulted my colleagues and friends

See the problem? Even if you do now, you won't in a few years, when that's what's being pushed, by the MAP mennos, or w/e they will call themselves.

MAP as in Mennonite Abuse Prevention? https://www.themaplist.org/

As in the database that lists Mennonite clergy and other church workers that abused people in their care? I volunteered with that group when it was still part of the Mennonite chapter of SNAP, which is the victim advocacy organization that took on pedophile priests in the Catholic Church. I also went to college with the current director of the MAP list. He’s a passionate advocate for Mennonite abuse survivors. Are you seriously accusing them of promoting bestiality and pedophilia? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

MAP is an acronym used for "minor attracted person". You completely missed what I was saying.

Szdfan, any thoughts?

[Ken]

Is work ethic necessarily greed?

My point isn't to criticize him. But to point out that I think there is a lot of hypocrisy when we pick and choose which sins to make a stand over. Jesus didn't say that gays won't enter the Kingdom of God. He said the rich man won't enter the Kingdom of God. There are a lot of very rich Mennonites out there. And we tend to put them into positions of respect and authority. And use all kinds of euphemisms to talk around the subject rather than the correct words like "rich man" and "greed".

So is engaging in homosexual practices sinful?

That is way too vague of a question. Sometimes they could be, sometimes not. A whole lot of heterosexual practices are sinful as well. Context matters.

Two middle-aged women buying a house together because they prefer each other's company to the company of men? And wanting to be in a legal partnership to deal with issues like shared finances, next of kin and inheritance issues? I'm not going to call that a sin.

Young men or women attending licentious orgies and sleeping around whether it is gay or straight sex? Sin. I'm not sure the gender of the partner you are fornicating with makes it any more or less sinful.

My point is not to be an arbiter of what is sin and what isn't. I think context is important just as with the discussion of greed a few posts upstream. When does industriousness become greed? It isn't a bright line.

What I do think is that many people have a natural tendency to be judgmental and it is easiest to be judgmental about issues that don't affect you personally. Straight people being judgmental about gays. Men being judgmental about women or women's clothing and comportment. White people being judgmental about people of color. People of European heritage being judgmental about the cultures and practices of others. Old people being judgmental about the young. Married people being judgmental about singles.

We always tend to turn our critical eye towards the failings of others rather than inward where it should be directed. What is it that Jesus said in Matthew 7 about hypocrisy and the mote in one's eye?

So to the subject at hand. I'm not one of these people who thinks sexuality or gender orientation needs to be celebrated or addressed in church whether one is gay or straight. So I think all this "affirmational" stuff is a bit much. I don't think affirming the sex drives of any members has much place in church whether they are gay or straight. There might be a time and place for it but I don't think it is Sunday morning. But I'm also straight so I don't think it is my place to be judgmental towards those who are not. And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

[HondurasKeiser]

My point isn't to criticize him. But to point out that I think there is a lot of hypocrisy when we pick and choose which sins to make a stand over. Jesus didn't say that gays won't enter the Kingdom of God. He said the rich man won't enter the Kingdom of God. There are a lot of very rich Mennonites out there. And we tend to put them into positions of respect and authority. And use all kinds of euphemisms to talk around the subject rather than the correct words like "rich man" and "greed".

So is engaging in homosexual practices sinful?

That is way too vague of a question. Sometimes they could be, sometimes not. A whole lot of heterosexual practices are sinful as well. Context matters.

Two middle-aged women buying a house together because they prefer each other's company to the company of men? And wanting to be in a legal partnership to deal with issues like shared finances, next of kin and inheritance issues? I'm not going to call that a sin.

Young men or women attending licentious orgies and sleeping around whether it is gay or straight sex? Sin. I'm not sure the gender of the partner you are fornicating with makes it any more or less sinful.

My point is not to be an arbiter of what is sin and what isn't. I think context is important just as with the discussion of greed a few posts upstream. When does industriousness become greed? It isn't a bright line.

What I do think is that many people have a natural tendency to be judgmental and it is easiest to be judgmental about issues that don't affect you personally. Straight people being judgmental about gays. Men being judgmental about women or women's clothing and comportment. White people being judgmental about people of color. People of European heritage being judgmental about the cultures and practices of others. Old people being judgmental about the young. Married people being judgmental about singles.

We always tend to turn our critical eye towards the failings of others rather than inward where it should be directed. What is it that Jesus said in Matthew 7 about hypocrisy and the mote in one's eye?

So to the subject at hand. I'm not one of these people who thinks sexuality or gender orientation needs to be celebrated or addressed in church whether one is gay or straight. So I think all this "affirmational" stuff is a bit much. I don't think affirming the sex drives of any members has much place in church whether they are gay or straight. There might be a time and place for it but I don't think it is Sunday morning. But I'm also straight so I don't think it is my place to be judgmental towards those who are not. And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

You seem to want to hem and haw in order to avoid having to say that sex between two men or two women is sinful. So let me be blunt: "Is sex between 2 men or 2 women sinful, irrespective of their romantic or committed status as a couple?"

[Ken]

Is work ethic necessarily greed?

It is only greed when you are not tithing and helping others with your abundance. It is not greed to prosper. It is what you do with your prosperity that matters. Scripture is full of people who are faithful and have prospered. Suggesting that someone is greedy just because they have is a distortion of scripture and could in a small way be blaspheming the abundance of the Holy Spirit in someone's life.

John 10:10. Live it!

A simple definition of greed is a "desire for more of something than is needed"

Most wealthy people got that way by valuing material wealth and material prosperity above other virtues, and by organizing their lives around material prosperity. Prosperity itself may not be the same thing as greed. But pursuing prosperity at the expense of other virtues and duties may well be. And giving 10% of it back in a tithe changes nothing. Greed is a mindset as much as a behavior.

My wife and I are relatively prosperous and it is something I struggle with at times. I just put it out there as a reason why I'm reluctant to be judgmental of others. Every one of us has our own unique combination of virtues and failings and I'm reluctant to be judgmental towards people who might have different ones than me.

[Ernie]

So is engaging in homosexual practices sinful?

But I'm also straight so I don't think it is my place to be judgmental towards those who are not. And I don't think this is an issue that Jesus would have split his church apart over.

I believe that any sort of sexual fantasy or activity, (outside of a loving relationship (between a legitimately married biological male and a biological female) is sin. I think there is good scriptural support for this position.

Do you agree with this?