Farewell, MCUSA

[HondurasKeiser]

Exactly. My Bible tells me that greed is also a sin. Can you find me a church in which no members suffer from the sin of greed? I haven’t found one yet.

I’ve also found out over the years that the most boring people to be with are those who are exactly like me. And they tend to be those who I learn from the least. Part of the reason why I hang out here instead of forums where everyone thinks exactly like me.

Can you find me a Mennonite church where greed is normalized and celebrated...where sin is called good?

There are plenty of churches that are just fine with wealthy members who devote their lives to acquisition, building businesses, expanding farms, etc. And who celebrate and promote such individuals into positions of church leadership. They don’t call it greed. They use other euphemisms like “work ethic”

Is work ethic necessarily greed?

[Ken]

Can you find me a Mennonite church where greed is normalized and celebrated...where sin is called good?

There are plenty of churches that are just fine with wealthy members who devote their lives to acquisition, building businesses, expanding farms, etc. And who celebrate and promote such individuals into positions of church leadership. They don’t call it greed. They use other euphemisms like “work ethic”

Is work ethic necessarily greed?

It can be. How much is "enough"? I have some Menno relatives who own large business. One cousin, for example, owns fleets of trucks and a construction business and seems to spend 60-70 hours a week running and building the businesses instead of time with his family and doing God's work. He is successful and they keep expanding and taking on more. I have no idea what his financials look like but the value of the businesses is probably pushing 8 figures by now.

My point isn't to criticize him. But to point out that I think there is a lot of hypocrisy when we pick and choose which sins to make a stand over. Jesus didn't say that gays won't enter the Kingdom of God. He said the rich man won't enter the Kingdom of God. There are a lot of very rich Mennonites out there. And we tend to put them into positions of respect and authority. And use all kinds of euphemisms to talk around the subject rather than the correct words like "rich man" and "greed".

[Soloist]

My point isn't to criticize him. But to point out that I think there is a lot of hypocrisy when we pick and choose which sins to make a stand over. Jesus didn't say that gays won't enter the Kingdom of God. He said the rich man won't enter the Kingdom of God. There are a lot of very rich Mennonites out there. And we tend to put them into positions of respect and authority. And use all kinds of euphemisms to talk around the subject rather than the correct words like "rich man" and "greed".

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Jesus actually said

Matt 19: 24-26 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Either the Scripture is the inspired word of God, or its just a collections of writings. So Jesus who is the Word of God, did say through the Spirit the words Paul recorded down and thus Jesus did say it.

To say it bluntly, the practicing homosexual will not enter the kingdom of God. Nor will a man who is covetous.

1 Tim 6: 17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

I do agree though that too many plain people trust in their wealth and the same conditions that were in Russia are in the US too. We are rich, fat and happy and we are kicking. Judgement must begin at the house of the Lord...

[temporal1]

Can you find me a Mennonite church where greed is normalized and celebrated...where sin is called good?

The nagging haunting question that remains.

Confession, repentance, submission, obedience are replaced with pride, flags, idolatry of gov, idolatry of legal language, and so much more, because SIN does not stay contained.

Who is more covetous than those who demand salvation without bothering with repentance or submission?
Pain on earth has one purpose: To draw us closer to God. Jesus Christ is not just another opiod.

SIN destroys. SIN is the root of anguish. There is no escape.

2 Peter 3:9
https://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-9.htm

8Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

9The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief.
The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.…

repentance, not pride.

greedy men know it, Truth haunts them. fornicators know. gluttons know. addicts know. Truth haunts all of us.
that’s the reality that won’t go away. clever determination can create chaos. in the end, no escaping raw Truth.



by the way.
i would not judge a man’s spiritual life by outward appearances. i defer to Boaz and other men in scriptures, who were hard-working, responsible, successful men on earth - who provided employment and goods+services for many. scriptures demonstrate men who are responsible and engaged on earth, while holding God at center, in the best and worst of times.

the instructions are there! (thankfully, i’ve met real life Boaz-types in my life.) some present. not in headlines. servants.
men who attend church with humble hearts, always seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit. wealth is a burden.

Luke 12:48
https://biblehub.com/luke/12-48.htm

47That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows.
48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

From everyone who has been given much, much will be required;
and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded.

49I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!…

[steve-in-kville]

[

It can be. How much is "enough"? I have some Menno relatives who own large business. One cousin, for example, owns fleets of trucks and a construction business and seems to spend 60-70 hours a week running and building the businesses instead of time with his family and doing God's work. He is successful and they keep expanding and taking on more. I have no idea what his financials look like but the value of the businesses is probably pushing 8 figures by now.

My point isn't to criticize him. But to point out that I think there is a lot of hypocrisy when we pick and choose which sins to make a stand over. Jesus didn't say that gays won't enter the Kingdom of God. He said the rich man won't enter the Kingdom of God. There are a lot of very rich Mennonites out there. And we tend to put them into positions of respect and authority. And use all kinds of euphemisms to talk around the subject rather than the correct words like "rich man" and "greed".

I am loosely following this thread, so I am no expert. But Ken makes a good point. We tend to cherry pick what's a super huge big deal and what is not. I've heard it preached over the pulpit numerous times that it is good for a man to be "industrious" often at the expense of family time. That never ends well... I learned that lesson the hard way...

[temporal1]

I am loosely following this thread, so I am no expert. But Ken makes a good point. We tend to cherry pick what's a super huge big deal and what is not. I've heard it preached over the pulpit numerous times that it is good for a man to be "industrious" often at the expense of family time. That never ends well... I learned that lesson the hard way...

There are worthwhile posts in this thread. Often the most valuable posts go without response. Example:

HondurasKeiser wrote:
Can you find me a Mennonite church where greed is normalized and celebrated...where sin is called good?

“Industry” or hard work, are not sins. Scriptures encourage work, very much discourage laziness.

As with money, THE LOVE OF work, or ANY IDOLATRY, becomes the SIN.
Did you hear sermons that implored the love of industry, above family, above faith? (i haven’t.)

Who hasn’t “learned lessons the hard way?” SIN hurts. Idolatry is sin.
Pain may be the most common first step toward repentance. Pain is an alert that something is askew.

God uses pain to draw us closer to Him.

[steve-in-kville]

Did you hear sermons that implored the love of industry, above family, above faith? (i haven’t.)

Almost. We were in an environment that endorsed working crazy amounts of overtime, breeding dogs plus whatever "side hustle" you could do to make money. If a married man wasn't worth $100K by age thirty, you were doing it wrong.

[ken_sylvania]

[

It can be. How much is "enough"? I have some Menno relatives who own large business. One cousin, for example, owns fleets of trucks and a construction business and seems to spend 60-70 hours a week running and building the businesses instead of time with his family and doing God's work. He is successful and they keep expanding and taking on more. I have no idea what his financials look like but the value of the businesses is probably pushing 8 figures by now.

My point isn't to criticize him. But to point out that I think there is a lot of hypocrisy when we pick and choose which sins to make a stand over. Jesus didn't say that gays won't enter the Kingdom of God. He said the rich man won't enter the Kingdom of God. There are a lot of very rich Mennonites out there. And we tend to put them into positions of respect and authority. And use all kinds of euphemisms to talk around the subject rather than the correct words like "rich man" and "greed".

I am loosely following this thread, so I am no expert. But Ken makes a good point. We tend to cherry pick what's a super huge big deal and what is not. I've heard it preached over the pulpit numerous times that it is good for a man to be "industrious" often at the expense of family time. That never ends well... I learned that lesson the hard way...

I have much more often heard the caution that family time is worth more than money and that it would be better to pass up opportunities to make a lot of money if they will interfere with a father's ability to be home with his family daily.

[Sudsy]

As Paul told the Corinthians to knock it off with being a follower of this guy or that guy rather focus on following Christ. Many Anabaptists seem to have ignored Paul's direction to not be an 'ite' of some man associated with their beginnings.

Do you see a difference between "ite" and "ist"?

Thanks everyone for the responses.

To Ernie's question - what I don't see in the NT is any separate identification of Christians having fellowship together aside from their geographical locations. So following this 'pattern' one could argue that the identifications of churches whether it be the teachings of a man (i.e. Menno, Hutter, Amman, Luther, Wesley, Knox, etc) or a specific emphasis (i.e. Baptist, Anabaptist, Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventist, Salvation Army, etc) are man made distinctions. And within these there are further identifications (i.e. First Baptist, Second Baptist, Pentecostal types, Charismatics, etc). Then we have these major categories of Catholic, Protestant and 'the third way', Anabaptist'.

In the book of the Revelation, churches are addressed by geographical location only and are praised and rebuked for their way of Christ following.

So, more directly to your question, 'no'. I don't believe the original intent for Christianity was all this division and distinction. Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and the Father were one. However, despite wandering from what I think Paul was getting at by these early church separations on who they followed, Jesus built His Church on who truly was following Him in the way that He acknowledged them as His followers.

In Acts we read were they were first called 'Christians' by non-Christians. If only, today, that was the main identification we all have and not all these other titles that I believe takes the focus off Christ. Do people see us mostly as Christian today and call us that or do they mainly associate us with one of these other groupings and their main emphasis of religion ?

Did I answer your question in this or did I miss what you were getting at ?

[Sudsy]

I initiated a conversation with one of our church elders about our congregation changing affiliations and not being part of MC-USA. He will first read the passed documents and consider the nuances.

'Come out from among them' and be independent of affiliations and all these man made divisions and coalitions. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

In my observation, it's the "independent" ones (whether individuals or congregations) that tend to become unbalanced in one way or another. I think it's really important to network with others who can provide accountability and resources and continuity. You might say it's one of my corps values.

In my observations there are also non-independent groups that are also 'unbalanced' in what they emphasize as most important. To obtain some form of unity and fellowship some revert to rules and practises that must be followed or you can't be one of them. I do agree that those identifying themselves as 'independent' often fall into the same. My use of the term 'independent' is not to be mainly known primarily as 'independent' but rather just as a church not affiliated with other like churches. The accountability of encouraging one another to be the best Christ follower as possible need not be that everyone follow Christ as all the others (i.e. Romans 14).

Whoops got to go for now, be back later.