Opinion on the Roe v. Wade Leak

[Ernie]

Jesus did not own slaves or preach in favor of owning slaves. He came to help slaves become free without rebelling against their masters.

Whitefield campaigned for the reinstitution of slavery in Georgia after it had been outlawed. He owned slaves. And he defended owning slaves, even though he had preached against it earlier. I think this is a classical example of what Paul says about becoming a castaway after one has given much of his life to preaching the Good News.

This book, chapter 15, shows how John Wesley tried reasoning with and appealing to Whitefield's conscience, all to no avail.
https://books.google.com/books?id=zEVbC ... &q&f=false

[temporal1]

It is suspected that there are 10% less abortions in Texas since laws changed. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/upsh ... -data.html
I expect that percentage to get smaller as people wanting abortions find alternatives.
However, even if there are 1% less abortions per year in the USA, that is 6000 babies that will have a chance at life.
That is a number I can still get excited about.

Yes, that would be a good outcome, and there is the added benefit of making evil things illegal, but what if you have miscalculated and the numbers actually increase. Is it still a net positive.

The state I live in saw this moment coming after the 2016 elections.
One of the first order of business was to add super strong abortion rights into the state constitution.
Time will tell.

The State of Chicago did the same. That is, enacting PREEMPTIVE laws “in case” higher courts ruled, not waiting for either a ruling or waiting for outcomes. i find this remarkably unethical. AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

The State of Chicago has not just been busy passing laws, for instance, laws making sure parents are NOT informed of their children’s private lives, pregnancies, or other decisions now to be between children/minors and various gov operatives in schools+healthcare,
but building abortion clinics in strategic locations, at state borders, near black neighborhoods, etc. Transportation and all details worked out to (ensure corporate profits do not suffer).

A couple years ago I met a young man whose mother got pregnant while studying at Westpoint.
(90% male students and 10% female students. Go figure.)

Anyhow, the mom was the 40th person that year to seek counsel about what to do with her child. As usual, the counselor gave all the options. Abortion. Adoption. Drop out of college for an unknown length of time. (The first 39 women chose abortion.)

The counselor was really bothered by this and decided he needed to offer this mom yet another option.
He offered that if she wanted to raise the child, she could stay at he and his wife's home. She took him up on this offer.
That was about 25 years ago. .. ..

This vision will be powerful and effective since it doesn't assume the problem of abortion is a legal problem and it doesn't hinge on legal solutions.

Let's multiply it by the number of believers there are in the country and see good fruit.
If we really put this in action, it wouldn't take long until the legal landscape would change as well.
Change the heart of the nation and the laws will follow.

To begin, years ago, it would have been unlikely for young females to attend male colleges, let alone military schools.

As for the human to human aspect, prior to the 1960’s, these kinds of personal exchanges were fairly common, The Golden Rule was part of home and school experience, people were encouraged to notice their neighbor’s need and help. The way of life.

i really suspect MLK Jr and political activists at that time, and since, made a grave error in leading people to seek answers through government policies+funding. Once gov is involved, “human to human” is set aside - intentionally and not intentionally.

Having said that, i believe most countries have abortion laws of some kind, as Josh suggests, not unlike officially recognized murder laws. Countries have an interest in maintaining populations for various practical reasons.

Nations will rule. i agree with you that many matters, including abortion, contraception, and many other decisions are family and faith matters, and, within bounds of the law, are best kept in families. The trend being, families+churches are being pushed right out of the picture. Lying to parents is encouraged+funded. By gov operatives called teachers, counselors, healthcare providers.

Canada has loose abortion laws, so “enjoys” a busy international sex-selection abortion business. It’s not that these healthy infants are unwanted, they’re just found to be the wrong sex. (In these cases, it turns out, there are males+females.) Fancy that.
https://angusreid.org/canadians-call-fo ... -abortion/

[barnhart]

If a fetus is a person and is aborted won't all these fetuses automatically go to heaven ?
If your answer is 'yes' then isn't it a risk to allow every fetus to be born and perhaps end up in hell ?

This type of thinking comes from over emphasizing the individual aspect of salvation at the expense of a doctrine of the kingdom of heaven. God's purposes are to create a kingdom by calling people out of the kingdoms of this world. When we focus on the individual experience or the method over the greater goal, we fall into error.

Not sure I understand, getting old. Does God call people out of this world into His Kingdom without them being born again ?

Here is an analogy. I eat to live, but I don't live to eat. Just because two things are closely linked does not mean they are interchangeable. If I live to eat, the results will not be good. Similarly I am saved because God is building a kingdom, but God is not building a kingdom to save me. When we put the method or experience of salvation in the place of the purpose of salvation, we err.

[Sudsy]

This type of thinking comes from over emphasizing the individual aspect of salvation at the expense of a doctrine of the kingdom of heaven. God's purposes are to create a kingdom by calling people out of the kingdoms of this world. When we focus on the individual experience or the method over the greater goal, we fall into error.

Not sure I understand, getting old. Does God call people out of this world into His Kingdom without them being born again ?

Here is an analogy. I eat to live, but I don't live to eat. Just because two things are closely linked does not mean they are interchangeable. If I live to eat, the results will not be good. Similarly I am saved because God is building a kingdom, but God is not building a kingdom to save me. When we put the method or experience of salvation in the place of the purpose of salvation, we err.

I believe God is building His Kingdom with those who will receive His gift of saving us from our sins. Matthew 1:21 - '"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” Romans 10:9-10 tells us how we become a citizen of this Kingdom that God is building by being saved from our sins. Yes, God has a purpose to build His Kingdom and He does this by saving us from our sins to become part of His Kingdom.

If I understand you right, I agree that the 'method' (i.e. kneel or 'repeat after me' or water baptism) does not save us and the experience of initial salvation differs with individuals (i.e. the woman in the Like 7:47 Jesus said she loved Him much for knowing just how much she had been forgiven). When I was initially saved, I did not have the same experience of just how much I had been forgiven as my father and mother did who previously didn't care about their sins.

Those who grow up in a church environment and then 'get saved' may not have a 'Damascus road experience'

[Sudsy]

This type of thinking comes from over emphasizing the individual aspect of salvation at the expense of a doctrine of the kingdom of heaven. God's purposes are to create a kingdom by calling people out of the kingdoms of this world. When we focus on the individual experience or the method over the greater goal, we fall into error.

Not sure I understand, getting old. Does God call people out of this world into His Kingdom without them being born again ?

Here is an analogy. I eat to live, but I don't live to eat. Just because two things are closely linked does not mean they are interchangeable. If I live to eat, the results will not be good. Similarly I am saved because God is building a kingdom, but God is not building a kingdom to save me. When we put the method or experience of salvation in the place of the purpose of salvation, we err.

I believe God is building His Kingdom with those who will receive His gift of saving us from our sins. Matthew 1:21 - '"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” Romans 10:9-10 tells us how we become a citizen of this Kingdom that God is building by being saved from our sins. Yes, God has a purpose to build His Kingdom and He does this by saving us from our sins to become part of His Kingdom.

If I understand you right, I agree that the 'method' (i.e. kneel or 'repeat after me' or water baptism) does not save us and it would seem many are trusting in that 'step' they took. And the experience of initial salvation differs with individuals (i.e. the woman in the Like 7:47 Jesus said she loved Him much for knowing just how much she had been forgiven). When I was initially saved, I did not have the same experience of just how much I had been forgiven as my father and mother did who previously didn't care about their sins. They both had radical conversion experiences begin in their lives.

Those who grow up in a church environment and then 'get saved' may not have a 'Damascus road experience' (likely the case for many Mennonites) yet they have the assurance within that their spirit bears witness with the Holy Spirit that they have been born again even if they can't pinpoint a place and time this occurred. It is about where we now stand with God. He has saved us from the ultimate penalty of our sins, past, present and future. Our current sinning robs us of an abundant life in Christ and all sinning has consequences in this world.

A question one could ask themselves is - 'have I been called out of the kingdoms of this world and now have a Kingdom of God mindset or is my mind mainly on what is going on in these other kingdoms ?' Some believe we can have a foot in both. Can we really and if so to what extent ?

I guess I really wandered off the thread topic again.

[temporal1]

OP page 1

Please discuss

nett,
Your subject line is about the leak, your poll question requests thoughts about a possible SCOTUS ruling:
“Do you believe overturning Roe v. Wade be positive for the USA?”

THE LEAK is a fact.
THE RULING has not been made.

Page 13 / Supreme Court and abortion.
HK wades in on the gravity of the leak:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4128&start=120

personally, i’m glad for focus to be on the leak.
overall, leaks have gone beyond being normalized in the U.S., possibly contributing to the boldness of this clearly unethical,
possibly unprecedented leak. MEDIA GOLD.

some speculation is that plans for this brouhaha have been underway since February, and that the wealthy abortion lobby is funding outrage. btw, outrage that is no longer a surprise to anyone, but a calculated SOP tactic of political bullies who have been rewarded with bullying over+over.

what is so bizarre is, it’s well known, this ruling will not make much difference in current practices.
states have been deliberately+methodically preparing to ensure protection of corporate profits, both in state laws, and state investment in clinics and infrastructure. possibly the most disturbing (to me) are laws that get directly between minors and their families+churches.

i admit, i never saw the day coming when the U.S. gov would formally be in the business of teaching children+teens to lie to their parents. not just on abortion (grandchildren) - but on many personal+private matters. LIE-LIE-LIE.

i have witnessed too much in my life. how much more? i ask God, “how much more?”
once i’m relieved, what will those following be saddled with?

so much unnecessary ugliness. fought over and chosen as-if it were a marvelous prize.

[temporal1]

^^ also on Page 13:

Nothing is sadder than seeing women outside the Supreme Court, campaigning for the right to kill their children.

Why does anyone have to witness this? i ask God.

[Grace]

^^ also on Page 13:

Nothing is sadder than seeing women outside the Supreme Court, campaigning for the right to kill their children.

Why does anyone have to witness this? i ask God.

The protestors have now gone beyond the Supreme Court, but someone gave the home addresses for the Justices and they are now protesting outside the justices homes. Yesterday Jen Psaki, the Biden administration's press secretary, would not even denounce protesters descending on the homes of justices to harass and target them and their families.

[temporal1]

^^ also on Page 13:

Nothing is sadder than seeing women outside the Supreme Court, campaigning for the right to kill their children.

Why does anyone have to witness this? i ask God.

The protestors have now gone beyond the Supreme Court,
but someone gave the home addresses for the Justices and they are now protesting outside the justices homes.

Yesterday Jen Psaki, the Biden administration's press secretary, would not even denounce protesters descending on the homes of justices to harass and target them and their families.

Worse is coming, and many freely voted for it. Many in utter deep denial.

i wonder and ask God, “is this purgatory?” (i wonder if i’m wrong to ask?!)
not being Catholic, for most decades of my life, purgatory was not on my radar.
only in recent years, witnessing people freely CHOOSE death+misery, embrace Pride+carnal sins; destroying families, exploiting children as gov policy/the force of the sword, and more, these things being floodgates to even worse, have i wondered about purgatory. i ask God “why?”

Some thoughts found on this forum:
WHAT IS ZIONISM?

That sounds like Heinz 57 varieties of theology. His attitude towards heaven would change if he were in my bible study last week at the nursing home.
That raises some interesting possibilities in my mind.

Regarding the New Jerusalem...who is the Bride of the Lamb?
Think about it!

There are all kinds of possibilities when you teach in the nursing homes.
The New Jerusalem does come down from heaven, Revelation 21 is NOT a description of heaven, but of the new heavens and new earth, which have nothing to do with the globe of dirt or the sun, moon and stars in a strictly scientific sense.

Response to george: ^^^

I hate to admit it, but I actually agree with that.

I am quite pleased to admit that I also agree.

Oh no, next thing we'll have consensus.

ENDOCRINE-DISRUPTING

The Bible (or the Old Testament law) never excuses something because “consenting adults” are doing it.

Mark my words:
eventually, the liberals and left will push things on us that they say “consenting children” should be doing.
It’s already happening with the liberals claiming that children as young as 4 can choose to be transsexual.

Children allowed life are now punished with hellish targeting by self-centered organized political blocs (and cults) -
given access to the public treasury, DOE, healthcare, and protected/promoted via the force of the sword.
purgatory??? (fair question)

ARE WE IN TRIBULATION?

If so, how far?? I think we are, but I'm no expert on the matter.... just going by the state of things....

some wonder about purgatory.
search.php?keywords=purgatory

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

CORONOVIRUS OUTBREAK

Yascha Mounk at The Atlantic says enough is enough: "Let’s drop the remaining restrictions on our everyday lives. Let’s shake off the pandemic malaise. Open everything."

In March 2020, the goal of social distancing was to eradicate COVID. At the time, public-health officials hoped that a test-trace-and-isolate regime might stop all cases of community transmission. As cases skyrocketed and hospitals came under strain, the justification for social distancing shifted. It was now meant to ensure that those who were the most sick could continue to receive high-quality medical care. The new goal was to “flatten the curve.”

Neither of these goals applies today. No one in a position of authority believes that we’re about to “defeat” the virus. COVID zero is not attainable. Nor are hospitals in imminent danger of collapse. Even at the height of the Omicron wave, some hospitals were strained but emergency rooms generally continued to provide quality care.

Some future COVID variant may prove much more dangerous than Omicron to the functioning of society. If a return to social-distancing measures should once again prove necessary, I’ll be among the first to say so. But at this point, the restrictions still shaping everyday life in America have become unnecessary. It is time to draw the logical inference—
and end our pandemic purgatory.

DECLINE. SPIRITUAL POVERTY
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4498&p=147196&hilit ... ry#p147196

[JimFoxvog]

My opinion is that the leak is destructive to the working of the Supreme Court. They should be able to deliberate in private, without public pressure on them in the midst of the discussions.

Whoever leaked this, whether for or against the opinion, should be penalized.