Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

Here is a perspective from an American who until recently lived in Russia:

Understanding the War in Ukraine

This is a good piece from Harley that captures some of the complexity between Russian and Ukrainian Christians. What a broken, horrible mess.

In particular, the spirituality and church structure in Ukraine seems to be have degraded thanks to Western missionary involvement. Russia has been a more hostile missionary environment, yet the spirituality and church structure in Russia seems to be healthier.

[Ken]

Here is a perspective from an American who until recently lived in Russia:

Understanding the War in Ukraine

This is a good piece from Harley that captures some of the complexity between Russian and Ukrainian Christians. What a broken, horrible mess.

In particular, the spirituality and church structure in Ukraine seems to be have degraded thanks to Western missionary involvement. Russia has been a more hostile missionary environment, yet the spirituality and church structure in Russia seems to be healthier.

You mean like the brand new Cathedral to the Armed Forces in Moscow? They seem to be putting all that oil money to good use solidifying the ties between the Russian Church and State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Cath ... med_Forces

[Josh]

This is a good piece from Harley that captures some of the complexity between Russian and Ukrainian Christians. What a broken, horrible mess.

In particular, the spirituality and church structure in Ukraine seems to be have degraded thanks to Western missionary involvement. Russia has been a more hostile missionary environment, yet the spirituality and church structure in Russia seems to be healthier.

You mean like the brand new Cathedral to the Armed Forces in Moscow? They seem to be putting all that oil money to good use solidifying the ties between the Russian Church and State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Cath ... med_Forces

Did you read the article?

Ukraine’s 2014 “Maidan Revolution” is crucial background to this conflict; the sitting president was ousted and replaced on an interim basis by Oleksandr Turchinov, a leading elder in one of Kyiv’s largest Baptist churches. He had worked for years in the Security Services. In one of his first acts as president he sent armed personnel to the Donbass region to put down protests by people who opposed the new regime. He gained the nickname “the bloody Baptist,” and frequently appeared in photos wearing a camouflage uniform and carrying a weapon.

Do you think that's a good thing?

I lament the “atomization” of the Slavic churches, and Western missionaries are partly culpable. Russian Baptists have traditionally been Arminian, but several powerful missionary groups promoted Calvinism which led to the creation of a new competing union. The schism between the Ukrainian and Russian Protestants provides fertile ground for conciliatory work. The hurts resulting from the so-called “underground” church of the Soviet era have yet to be healed completely.

Western missionaries are spreading ideas like calvinistic dominionism. Do you think that's a good or a bad thing?

[Ken]

In particular, the spirituality and church structure in Ukraine seems to be have degraded thanks to Western missionary involvement. Russia has been a more hostile missionary environment, yet the spirituality and church structure in Russia seems to be healthier.

You mean like the brand new Cathedral to the Armed Forces in Moscow? They seem to be putting all that oil money to good use solidifying the ties between the Russian Church and State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Cath ... med_Forces

Did you read the article?

Ukraine’s 2014 “Maidan Revolution” is crucial background to this conflict; the sitting president was ousted and replaced on an interim basis by Oleksandr Turchinov, a leading elder in one of Kyiv’s largest Baptist churches. He had worked for years in the Security Services. In one of his first acts as president he sent armed personnel to the Donbass region to put down protests by people who opposed the new regime. He gained the nickname “the bloody Baptist,” and frequently appeared in photos wearing a camouflage uniform and carrying a weapon.

Do you think that's a good thing?

I lament the “atomization” of the Slavic churches, and Western missionaries are partly culpable. Russian Baptists have traditionally been Arminian, but several powerful missionary groups promoted Calvinism which led to the creation of a new competing union. The schism between the Ukrainian and Russian Protestants provides fertile ground for conciliatory work. The hurts resulting from the so-called “underground” church of the Soviet era have yet to be healed completely.

Western missionaries are spreading ideas like calvinistic dominionism. Do you think that's a good or a bad thing?

Yes I read the article. Christianity ensnaring itself with the affairs of state is generally a bad thing, don't you agree?

Turchinov is no longer the president of Ukraine. He was acting president of Ukraine for a whole whopping 3 months in 2014. Since then Ukraine has elected two additional presidents and Turchinov's party got only 13% of the vote in the last election and won barely any seats so he is clearly not popular and Ukraine has moved on. That is how democracy works. How many free and fair elections has Russia held since then?

We can compare the extent to which church and state are enmeshed in both Russia and Ukraine in 2022. But I suspect we don't need to because it is pretty obvious. As for western missionaries? I'm not really knowledgeable enough about that to comment intelligently. But it wouldn't surprise me if they have made a mess of things. It wouldn't be the first time.

As for the Donbass? We have now had nearly a decade of pro-Russian rule in many parts of the Donbass so we can take stock with what that means. And what it would mean for other parts of Ukraine if Russian rule is extended to other parts of Ukraine. We know what is happening there now and in 2022 prior to the war. Sounds like a little slice of paradise.

[mike]

Here is a perspective from an American who until recently lived in Russia:

Understanding the War in Ukraine

This is a good piece from Harley that captures some of the complexity between Russian and Ukrainian Christians. What a broken, horrible mess.

In particular, the spirituality and church structure in Ukraine seems to be have degraded thanks to Western missionary involvement. Russia has been a more hostile missionary environment, yet the spirituality and church structure in Russia seems to be healthier.

Repeatedly Harley said that Russians have no voice. Were Russian Christians spiritually courageous enough to speak out against war, I assume they would not fare so well. But it is wonderful that their church structure seems healthy

[Josh]

Repeatedly Harley said that Russians have no voice. Were Russian Christians spiritually courageous enough to speak out against war, I assume they would not fare so well. But it is wonderful that their church structure seems healthy

Exactly where is the mission and purpose of Christianity to speak out against (certain) wars? It seems a strange metric for healthy Christianity: in essence, Christianity becomes defined by whether or not you are aligned with the same goals as the U.S. military. (Yes, I'm aware most of the American right wing indeed defines being a Christian this way.)

[mike]

Meanwhile, nonresistant Christians in Ukraine are fleeing or living in fear, thanks to the Russian invasion and the potential of Ukraine implementing military draft.

This report from four men involved one way or another in aiding Ukrainian refugees is a few weeks old at this point but it contains stories of the striking realities of this situation.

[mike]

Repeatedly Harley said that Russians have no voice. Were Russian Christians spiritually courageous enough to speak out against war, I assume they would not fare so well. But it is wonderful that their church structure seems healthy

Exactly where is the mission and purpose of Christianity to speak out against (certain) wars? It seems a strange metric for healthy Christianity: in essence, Christianity becomes defined by whether or not you are aligned with the same goals as the U.S. military. (Yes, I'm aware most of the American right wing indeed defines being a Christian this way.)

Reread what I said a little more carefully.

[Josh]

Repeatedly Harley said that Russians have no voice. Were Russian Christians spiritually courageous enough to speak out against war, I assume they would not fare so well. But it is wonderful that their church structure seems healthy

Exactly where is the mission and purpose of Christianity to speak out against (certain) wars? It seems a strange metric for healthy Christianity: in essence, Christianity becomes defined by whether or not you are aligned with the same goals as the U.S. military. (Yes, I'm aware most of the American right wing indeed defines being a Christian this way.)

Reread what I said a little more carefully.

In America we can have very loud voices, but what difference does it make? America remains one of the worst on record for raining down death and destruction. The present-day state of Russia is a mere piker compared to what America did to human lives in Iraq, numbering in the millions.

[Josh]

Meanwhile, nonresistant Christians in Ukraine are fleeing or living in fear, thanks to the Russian invasion and the potential of Ukraine implementing military draft.

This report from four men involved one way or another in aiding Ukrainian refugees is a few weeks old at this point but it contains stories of the striking realities of this situation.

Is this different from American treatment of COs in the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WWI, Vietnam War (many escaped to Canada during the Vietnam War)? We currently have a great deal of tolerance for COs but there is no reason to expect that will stay the same.

Russian Mennonites left the Ukraine anymore because of fear of a conscription. Considering the NT says there will be "wars and rumours of wars", I'm not sure what exactly the goal is here. World peace isn't going to happen.