LGBT and Christian Persecution

[GaryK]

I would say he sets them up only in the sense that he allows people to form them and in the sense that he can use them for his own purposes just like he might use an earthquake...or wild bears.

However they are not blest or sanctioned by him. Rather he is actively leading the building of his kingdom. Therefore, if we buy into the principles of his kingdom, we ought to espouse those to the worldly kingdom. And the damage that violence does needs to be confronted with salt and light.

I don’t understand how you square that with scripture that clearly states that God ordains them.

It requires a little bit of mental gymnastics to be sure, but it seems obvious that a casual reading doesn't work for Romans 13...as clearly the Roman government was, in the end, not "God's servant for good" to Paul, and was, in fact, "a terror to those" of good works. Further, it seems obvious a simple "divine right" reading doesn't work in situations like Lancaster county in 1776, or Harrisonburg in 1865. Further, it seems obvious a simple reading doesn't work because Hitler/Nero/Henry the VIII etc are not godly ministers, Henry's protestations aside.

Therefore, and as a principle axiom of my hermeneutic, I'd rather harmonize Roman's 13 with the teachings and witness of Jesus rather than the other way around.

So I see Romans 13 as a more or less proverbial teaching that is generally true but not a prescription of divine right...or some divinely sanctioned authority that escapes the teachings/witness of the real King.

That is how I square it...and those gymnastics are easier for me than calling Hitler, or Osama, or Henry the VIII God's annointed minister who exercise godly (that is Christly) authority.

To me, this comes across as claiming to know the mind of God in the situations you mention. How many of Paul's epistles were written during his time in Roman prisons? What do you say about places like China where the underground church is growing by leaps and bounds under a very oppressive government? I don't claim to know the mind of God in all he does by setting up earthly governments. He is not confined to our interpretations of what He does and does not do.

ETA: Also, what do you say about the Roman government crucifying Jesus in order for the NT KOG to be established?

[Dan Z]

I don’t understand how you square that with scripture that clearly states that God ordains them.

It requires a little bit of mental gymnastics to be sure, but it seems obvious that a casual reading doesn't work for Romans 13...as clearly the Roman government was, in the end, not "God's servant for good" to Paul, and was, in fact, "a terror to those" of good works. Further, it seems obvious a simple "divine right" reading doesn't work in situations like Lancaster county in 1776, or Harrisonburg in 1865. Further, it seems obvious a simple reading doesn't work because Hitler/Nero/Henry the VIII etc are not godly ministers, Henry's protestations aside.

Therefore, and as a principle axiom of my hermeneutic, I'd rather harmonize Roman's 13 with the teachings and witness of Jesus rather than the other way around.

So I see Romans 13 as a more or less proverbial teaching that is generally true but not a prescription of divine right...or some divinely sanctioned authority that escapes the teachings/witness of the real King.

That is how I square it...and those gymnastics are easier for me than calling Hitler, or Osama, or Henry the VIII God's annointed minister who exercise godly (that is Christly) authority.

To me, this comes across as claiming to know the mind of God in the situations you mention. How many of Paul's epistles were written during his time in Roman prisons? What do you say about places like China where the underground church is growing by leaps and bounds under a very oppressive government? I don't claim to know the mind of God in all he does by setting up earthly governments. He is not confined to our interpretations of what He does and does not do.

ETA: Also, what do you say about the Roman government crucifying Jesus in order for the NT KOG to be established?

In cases of right and wrong, I believe we can know the mind of God...

Paul encourages us to have the mind of Christ...perhaps a starting point would be to acknowledge that things like the killing and maiming of civilians, including children, in acts of violent aggression, are acts that clearly violate the teachings and will of Jesus. Does God initiate evil against His own nature? Or, as Barnhart has noted, is he instead in the grace-filled business of redeeming man's evil for good...in spite of our fallenness. In my understanding, I believe that's what happened at the cross.

[Josh]

Paul encourages us to have the mind of Christ...perhaps a starting point would be to acknowledge that things like the killing and maiming of civilians, including children, in acts of violent aggression, are acts that clearly violate the teachings and will of Jesus.

The message of the gospel is that the only way to change this is to become born again, be baptised, accept Jesus' teachings, become part of a Bible-following church to hold your accountable to follow these teachings, and to personally turn away from sin.

The message of the gospel is not one of a "social movement" where we run around telling people war is bad. Jesus' teachings is that wars and rumours of wars will persist until his return. (He also said the same about poverty.)

[GaryK]

It requires a little bit of mental gymnastics to be sure, but it seems obvious that a casual reading doesn't work for Romans 13...as clearly the Roman government was, in the end, not "God's servant for good" to Paul, and was, in fact, "a terror to those" of good works. Further, it seems obvious a simple "divine right" reading doesn't work in situations like Lancaster county in 1776, or Harrisonburg in 1865. Further, it seems obvious a simple reading doesn't work because Hitler/Nero/Henry the VIII etc are not godly ministers, Henry's protestations aside.

Therefore, and as a principle axiom of my hermeneutic, I'd rather harmonize Roman's 13 with the teachings and witness of Jesus rather than the other way around.

So I see Romans 13 as a more or less proverbial teaching that is generally true but not a prescription of divine right...or some divinely sanctioned authority that escapes the teachings/witness of the real King.

That is how I square it...and those gymnastics are easier for me than calling Hitler, or Osama, or Henry the VIII God's annointed minister who exercise godly (that is Christly) authority.

To me, this comes across as claiming to know the mind of God in the situations you mention. How many of Paul's epistles were written during his time in Roman prisons? What do you say about places like China where the underground church is growing by leaps and bounds under a very oppressive government? I don't claim to know the mind of God in all he does by setting up earthly governments. He is not confined to our interpretations of what He does and does not do.

ETA: Also, what do you say about the Roman government crucifying Jesus in order for the NT KOG to be established?

In cases of right and wrong, I believe we can know the mind of God...

Paul encourages us to have the mind of Christ...perhaps a starting point would be to acknowledge that things like the killing and maiming of civilians, including children, in acts of violent aggression, are acts that clearly violate the teachings and will of Jesus. Does God initiate evil against His own nature? Or, as Barnhart has noted, is he instead in the grace-filled business of redeeming man's evil for good...in spite of our fallenness. In my understanding, I believe that's what happened at the cross.

I fully agree that we as NT KOG citizens are supposed to have the mind of Christ and that none of the examples you give are permitted by followers of Jesus. But looking at OT events, it is clear that God directed some of the things you mention above. Either God has changed how He deals with fallen, sinful humanity who choose to remain in their sinfulness, since the event of Jesus' death and resurrection, or He is the same yesterday, today and forever. It would be wrong for me to judge someone into final judgement, but not wrong for God. Will God be "initiating evil" against His own nature at the final judgement?

Romans 12:19 NKJV "Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord."

[barnhart]

What are some of the general principles you have in mind?

The new testament does not address every interaction we might have with government. I don't think we can argue that peaceful civil protest is disallowed because it is not mentioned.

I take it you would participate in protests if you feel what the government is doing is evil?

I have, for example I joined a group singing on the sidewalk around the largest abortion clinic here in NYC.

[GaryK]

What are some of the general principles you have in mind?

The new testament does not address every interaction we might have with government. I don't think we can argue that peaceful civil protest is disallowed because it is not mentioned.

I take it you would participate in protests if you feel what the government is doing is evil?

I have, for example I joined a group singing on the sidewalk around the largest abortion clinic here in NYC.

I'm not arguing what you suggest.

Earlier, in response to my question "Are you aware of any NT passages where Jesus or the Apostles teach followers of Jesus to condemn aggressor nations or the evil that is done by these political systems?" you replied:

Not every situation relating to Government is covered, more general principles

What are these general principles you have in mind?

[Bootstrap]

What are some of the general principles you have in mind?

The new testament does not address every interaction we might have with government. I don't think we can argue that peaceful civil protest is disallowed because it is not mentioned.

I take it you would participate in protests if you feel what the government is doing is evil?

I have, for example I joined a group singing on the sidewalk around the largest abortion clinic here in NYC.

And of course, abortion is not mentioned in the New Testament either. Come to think of it, does the Old Testament mention abortion? But I have also participated in protests against abortion. And helped lead some.

[Soloist]

And of course, abortion is not mentioned in the New Testament either. Come to think of it, does the Old Testament mention abortion? But I have also participated in protests against abortion. And helped lead some.

There are quite a few things Scripture does not address, yet we can identify the problems with those positions even if we don't have a verse directly stating such.

[Bootstrap]

And of course, abortion is not mentioned in the New Testament either. Come to think of it, does the Old Testament mention abortion? But I have also participated in protests against abortion. And helped lead some.

There are quite a few things Scripture does not address, yet we can identify the problems with those positions even if we don't have a verse directly stating such.

I agree. In fact, that was precisely the point I was making. I suspect MOST of the things we do to live out the things Jesus taught are not explicitly spelled out in Scripture.

[Ken]

What are some of the general principles you have in mind?

The new testament does not address every interaction we might have with government. I don't think we can argue that peaceful civil protest is disallowed because it is not mentioned.

I take it you would participate in protests if you feel what the government is doing is evil?

I have, for example I joined a group singing on the sidewalk around the largest abortion clinic here in NYC.

And of course, abortion is not mentioned in the New Testament either. Come to think of it, does the Old Testament mention abortion?

Yes...

2 Kings 15:16: At that time Menahem sacked Tiphsah and all who were in it and its territory from Tirzah on, because they did not open it to him. Therefore he sacked it, and he ripped open all the women in it who were pregnant.

Isaiah 13:16: Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.

Isaiah 13:18: Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children.

I Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass

Lamentations 2:20: Look, O Lord, and see! With whom have you dealt thus? Should women eat the fruit of their womb, the children of their tender care? Should priest and prophet be killed in the sanctuary of the Lord?

Ezekiel 9:6: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Hosea 9:14: Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

Hosea 13:16: Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.