LGBT and Christian Persecution

[joshuabgood]

Gary, would you condemn, al quaeda, the mafia, the Taliban, Hezbollah, the Confederacy, and the rebellious 13 colonies, and Henry the 8th?

What makes a coercive principality a ruler by divine right?

I generally do not involve myself in either condemning or promoting worldly political systems. I suppose only God can answer all the questions about why He sets up coercive principalities but I believe one of the reasons He does is because of the sin humanity has chosen to be involved in.

I would say he sets them up only in the sense that he allows people to form them and in the sense that he can use them for his own purposes just like he might use an earthquake...or wild bears.

However they are not blest or sanctioned by him. Rather he is actively leading the building of his kingdom. Therefore, if we buy into the principles of his kingdom, we ought to espouse those to the worldly kingdom. And the damage that violence does needs to be confronted with salt and light.

[temporal1]

Romans 13:1 and Titus 3:1 do not suggest God is detached from earthly leaders.
Example: God does not say we must obey wild bears.

Not to suggest correct understanding is easy.

https://www.google.com/search?q=biblehu ... s-wiz-serp

i respect GaryK’s reference to sin as reason-why (we do not enjoy heaven on earth).

[Bootstrap]

I'm mostly thinking about Christ-like empathy here, and the willingness as peacemakers, to grieve with those who grieve and mourn with those who mourn. Mostly, to me it seems right to stand in solidarity with the oppressed and with the displaced, and this includes recognizing and calling out a wrong when it has been perpetrated upon them.

Secondarily, as a New Covenant Christian, I also struggle with the idea that Christ is somehow working out His divine will by allowing or raising up a warmonger for the destruction of innocent lives - something that is diametrically opposed to his teachings. (In the same way that I don't think Jesus directs hurricanes to punish sin-filled cities, or deadly plagues to chastize gay people.). This seems like an Old Covenant concept that contradicts the witness and way of God in Christ Jesus. I believe we can say without hesitation that warmongering is wrong and against the will of Christ...in the same way that abortion is wrong and against the will of Jesus.

This is very much where I am coming from.

[GaryK]

Some of what bootstrap says here resonates with me.

Where do empathy and moral judgment play in here? As a Christian, there must be a way of calling out aggression and warmongering (like the invasion of a neighboring country and the wanton destruction of innocent lives and property) without being drawn into overcoming evil with evil. Jesus does that when he called out those who oppress and exploit...he did so without leading a proletariate revolution (something I believe he would have been socially pressured to do). Instead, he responded to the evil he faced by calling people to face down wrong through the radically disruptive path of love and non-resistance. Aloofness to avoid entanglement seems like the sin of the Priest and the Levite in the parable of the good Samaritan.

A person hoping to stop a fight by calling out a mugger's brutality doesn't feel like the same situation as "picking sides" in a street fight of co-belligerents.

At the same time, cheering on as the West pours weaponry into Ukraine would be like handing the mugging victim a gun to "settle the score."

The Christian response in all of this is the response of the Samaritan - to practice empathy, bind wounds, and minister hope and healing to the oppressed. Blessed are the peacemakers!

If I'm understanding correctly, you are probably referencing Jesus speaking to the religious Jewish leaders. I see that differently than speaking to political systems like Ukraine and Russia.

If I had a chance to talk with Putin or Zelensky or any of the individual soldiers involved in the war, I would tell them they are in the wrong kingdom and point out the differences in the 2 kingdoms. Their kingdoms are full of turmoil and fighting and the other is a Kingdom of suffering love where peace is taught and this Kingdom is led by Jesus. I would invite them to become of part of the Kingdom of suffering love and peace.

I would not attempt to tell them how they should run their kingdoms because I don't know for what purpose God has set up their particular kingdoms. I also don't know the mind of God on this war and I'm doubtful anyone does. I keep thinking about the time Jesus said "If My Kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." Isn't Jesus implying that it is expected that earthly kingdoms and their rulers will fight and use coercion to accomplish their goals? Fighting and coercion always have and always will cause suffering and exploitation.

If NT KOG ethics and principles are what is behind a Christian calling out aggression and warmongering by the aggressor country, wouldn't those same ethics and principles prompt the Christian to also call on the country being oppressed and exploited to overcome evil with good and not fight back. If not, why not? I don't hear any of that kind of response being promoted here and to me that seems inconsistent. It also feels like promoting one and not the other is like saying God has taken a side in this war and is giving Ukraine an exemption from these Kingdom ethics and principles because they are the ones being wronged.

So, to me, Christians not calling out horrible things political systems do, doesn't feel like a matter of aloofness and not caring about those being exploited. I really do care. (Our church recently sent a love offering to a brother in Poland to help with the refugee crisis.) To me it feels like a matter of accepting the reality, as it seems Jesus did, that worldly political systems use fighting and coercion to accomplish their goals. And the reality of it happening in this Russia/Ukraine war really should be another strong wake up call to the church to get as many people out of worldly kingdoms into the NT KOG as we can.

This is a wise response Gary...thanks for putting the time into it. Your position is quite consistent, and helps us from getting sucked into political loyalties or pointlessly trying to impose Kingdom values and principles on non-kingdom power structures. You point to loving, personal relationships as the contact point between the lost and a relationship with Jesus. I agree wholeheartedly! I think we're not far apart, and I have no interest in activism or co-opting political power.

I'm mostly thinking about Christ-like empathy here, and the willingness as peacemakers, to grieve with those who grieve and mourn with those who mourn. Mostly, to me it seems right to stand in solidarity with the oppressed and with the displaced, and this includes recognizing and calling out a wrong when it has been perpetrated upon them.

Secondarily, as a New Covenant Christian, I also struggle with the idea that Christ is somehow working out His divine will by allowing or raising up a warmonger for the destruction of innocent lives - something that is diametrically opposed to his teachings. (In the same way that I don't think Jesus directs hurricanes to punish sin-filled cities, or deadly plagues to chastize gay people.). This seems like an Old Covenant concept that contradicts the witness and way of God in Christ Jesus. I believe we can say without hesitation that warmongering is wrong and against the will of Christ...in the same way that abortion is wrong and against the will of Jesus.

Thanks for this Dan. I understand the tension you speak of here and I don't feel like I know the answers. I'm simply trying to find answers to some questions all of this has raised in my mind.

To your last point: I'm not suggesting that God is raising up warmongers such as Putin for the destruction of innocent lives. The destruction of innocent human lives is always the result of war. Are you aware of any teachings by Jesus or the Apostles that address how dueling worldly political systems should work out their disagreements? Does God through Jesus address how political systems should function? If anything, I see Jesus seemingly acknowledging that earthly political systems will fight to accomplish their goals. He's contrasting that with the way His Kingdom functions. But I'm not aware that He either condemns or promotes certain types of earthly political systems. I really want to be proven wrong about this and if I can be shown where Jesus spoke into what is right or wrong for earthly governments to do, I will seriously reconsider the direction this is currently leading me.

[GaryK]

Gary, would you condemn, al quaeda, the mafia, the Taliban, Hezbollah, the Confederacy, and the rebellious 13 colonies, and Henry the 8th?

What makes a coercive principality a ruler by divine right?

I generally do not involve myself in either condemning or promoting worldly political systems. I suppose only God can answer all the questions about why He sets up coercive principalities but I believe one of the reasons He does is because of the sin humanity has chosen to be involved in.

I would say he sets them up only in the sense that he allows people to form them and in the sense that he can use them for his own purposes just like he might use an earthquake...or wild bears.

However they are not blest or sanctioned by him. Rather he is actively leading the building of his kingdom. Therefore, if we buy into the principles of his kingdom, we ought to espouse those to the worldly kingdom. And the damage that violence does needs to be confronted with salt and light.

But would you say the governments God sets up by allowance are condemned by God?

[barnhart]

But would you say the governments God sets up by allowance are condemned by God?

God used several nations to discipline Israel through war, invasions, and captivity, but that did not insulate the aggressor nations from judgement. You can read God's condemnation of them in the prophets.

[temporal1]

GaryK:
.. I'm simply trying to find answers to some questions all of this has raised in my mind.

To your last point:
I'm not suggesting that God is raising up warmongers such as Putin for the destruction of innocent lives.
The destruction of innocent human lives is always the result of war.

Are you aware of any teachings by Jesus or the Apostles that address how dueling worldly political systems should work out their disagreements? Does God through Jesus address how political systems should function?

If anything, I see Jesus seemingly acknowledging that earthly political systems will fight to accomplish their goals.
He's contrasting that with the way His Kingdom functions.

But I'm not aware that He either condemns or promotes certain types of earthly political systems.
I really want to be proven wrong about this and if I can be shown where Jesus spoke into what is right or wrong for earthly governments to do, I will seriously reconsider the direction this is currently leading me.

No one can undo what Putin did.
The choice is to fight fire with fire, or, follow Jesus, who told His to love enemies and persecutors.

This is 100% counterintuitive to human nature, even devoted Christians struggle.
To not harm is one thing. To love is yet another big step.

i honestly can barely imagine what would happen if Putin were met with Christian love?
Meeting tanks with offers of food+drink?

Can Jesus be trusted?

[i don’t understand this to mean Putin will get a pass on judgment. Jesus is adamant, He will judge (all).]

[silentreader]

It seems to me that there are some parallels with how God deals with individual's sins.
There are some things that God considers an abomination in the OT, and I think we can get the same understanding from The Revelation.
But in the mean time, I believe we still live in a time of which was said,

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Christ did not come to condemn, but to present the Way of Salvation. Each one of us can easily condemn ourselves by how we respond to the Way of Salvation. We are not called to be ambassadors of condemnation, but as ambassadors of reconciliation.
Any condemnation that is meted out by Christ will be as a response to our "works" when the time of Grace in which we live, has ended.

[joshuabgood]

I generally do not involve myself in either condemning or promoting worldly political systems. I suppose only God can answer all the questions about why He sets up coercive principalities but I believe one of the reasons He does is because of the sin humanity has chosen to be involved in.

I would say he sets them up only in the sense that he allows people to form them and in the sense that he can use them for his own purposes just like he might use an earthquake...or wild bears.

However they are not blest or sanctioned by him. Rather he is actively leading the building of his kingdom. Therefore, if we buy into the principles of his kingdom, we ought to espouse those to the worldly kingdom. And the damage that violence does needs to be confronted with salt and light.

But would you say the governments God sets up by allowance are condemned by God?

Yes I would. As Harlan noted, the Philistines were used by God to judge the Hebrews, however the Philistines were judged. God allows humans to work outside of his will, and in his great providence, some how he can use those things and turn them into good things, however, the sin is still judged. The greatest example of this of all time is the death of Jesus by one of those governments. What God allows, and can even use, are not his ways.

[GaryK]

But would you say the governments God sets up by allowance are condemned by God?

God used several nations to discipline Israel through war, invasions, and captivity, but that did not insulate the aggressor nations from judgement. You can read God's condemnation of them in the prophets.

I was thinking about in our day when I asked the question. If this implies that being the aggressor nation always brings the judgement of God, then Russia is not alone in an impending judgement.

Are you aware of any NT passages where Jesus or the Apostles teach followers of Jesus to condemn aggressor nations or the evil that is done by these political systems? I'm aware of the ones that call us to pray for, pay taxes and obey earthly governments.