Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Soloist

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Soloist »

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:32 pm There are a lot of maps out there. One of the most interesting is an open-sourced project that tracks multiple reports from both sides. Their three most current maps show the following:

First, that the Russians largely control just the highways and not the surrounding countryside because their heavy weaponry can't advance through the spring muds on soft ground and they lack the infantry forces to control large swaths of countryside on foot. Ukraine is a vast country and the Russians simply lack the forces and logistics to control large swaths of the country:
There are a large amount of maps and differing information. The reality is that controlling the roads is generally controlling an area. While its true troops could be moved and slip through woods to ambush or take back choke points, its generally not practical for a number of reasons. Apply this logic to any government and generally they control through the roads, not through a forest.
War is not waged effectively by mass infantry movements and you should be well aware of this. The proper form for advancing is vehicles supported by infantry with air superiority.
I've actually done land navigation in the military and its much harder then you might think and trying to go through mud and forest is quite an ordeal and then to take weapons capable of harming tanks and still have an egress route after you attack... If its a clear field, its very tricky to advance without suppressing fire being brought to bear.
Ukraine infantry is not a team of spec ops, they are poorly trained conscripts with some very capable weapons and likely some American and European trainers. None of these new conscripts have any deep concept of military tactics and essentially they are not massing in formations but rather smaller mobile forces likely geared for rapid movement aka boom and zoom.
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Josh

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:38 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:35 pm
temporal1 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:27 pm thank you for inviting (us) to not be stupid.
what do you think about some opinions that (Zelensky+the Left West) want a protracted war/conflict? (of course, blamed on Putin).
if the alternative is giving up part of your land? then yes. Otherwise I have no comment.
I think it is up to the Ukrainians to determine how much territory, autonomy, and control over the future trajectory of their country they want to give up in exchange for a temporary cessation of hostilities.

And yes, Putin is indeed to blame for every moment that Russian troops remain on Ukrainian soil. And every bit of death and destruction that results. No one else but Putin.
That’s not how wars work. Strong countries decide how much autonomy and land they let weaker countries have. The weaker country would do well to consider diplomacy instead of opting for force.

Weaker countries sometimes juggle relationships with multiple competing strong countries. This is a dangerous game to play, as Zelensky has learned.

If you don’t like this - too bad - war is the epitome of “might makes right”. That’s just how war is. There is no policeman to call to enforce your view of what “should” be.
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Ken
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Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:28 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:38 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:35 pm

if the alternative is giving up part of your land? then yes. Otherwise I have no comment.
I think it is up to the Ukrainians to determine how much territory, autonomy, and control over the future trajectory of their country they want to give up in exchange for a temporary cessation of hostilities.

And yes, Putin is indeed to blame for every moment that Russian troops remain on Ukrainian soil. And every bit of death and destruction that results. No one else but Putin.
That’s not how wars work. Strong countries decide how much autonomy and land they let weaker countries have. The weaker country would do well to consider diplomacy instead of opting for force.

Weaker countries sometimes juggle relationships with multiple competing strong countries. This is a dangerous game to play, as Zelensky has learned.

If you don’t like this - too bad - war is the epitome of “might makes right”. That’s just how war is. There is no policeman to call to enforce your view of what “should” be.
It is exactly how wars work. There are endless examples of larger powers giving up and calling it quits when a war became too costly and pointless to pursue.

The British during the American Revolution
The Vietnam War
The Soviets in Afghanistan
The French in Algeria

Yes, the Russians are the larger power. But they have 22,400 miles of land borders to defend from Finland all the way to Japan. With countless potential trouble spots, ethnic conflicts, and potentially unfriendly neighbors with their own objectives. They can't necessarily throw their entire military force into a battle with Ukraine. And the longer they commit atrocities against civilian populations the more isolated they become. Their economy is shrinking and will soon be the size of Mexico. On the other hand, Ukraine has no other enemies (unless you possibly count Belarus) and can throw their entire military and economy into this one fight.

My only point is that it is up to Ukraine and Ukrainians to decide for themselves how important their territory, autonomy, and independence is and how much of that they want to exchange for what is likely to be just a temporary cessation in hostilities. It isn't for you or me or anyone else to decide for them.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

Ukraine has 2 wolves at its door.
The lesser one is aggressive, the other passive-aggressive. (if you can describe it as such without choking.)

it appears they’ve chosen. i hope they don’t have long term regrets.

but, no, it’s not a matter of “free” choice.
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JimFoxvog

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by JimFoxvog »

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:38 pm And yes, Putin is indeed to blame for every moment that Russian troops remain on Ukrainian soil. And every bit of death and destruction that results. No one else but Putin.
I disagree.

Everyone who chooses to obey a tyrant rather than disobey and take the consequences, or flee, has some partial responsibility also.

Image
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Neto

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Neto »

JimFoxvog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:24 am
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:38 pm And yes, Putin is indeed to blame for every moment that Russian troops remain on Ukrainian soil. And every bit of death and destruction that results. No one else but Putin.
I disagree.

Everyone who chooses to obey a tyrant rather than disobey and take the consequences, or flee, has some partial responsibility also.

Image
I strongly agree. I've already mentioned this before, but otherwise you end up where I was before I took a position against Christians in war efforts, the idea that when I act as a subject of the nation where I hold citizenship, I am not acting personally, and do not have any personal responsibility. If this were true, then there would be no reason for anyone to ever reject any type of military involvement, including killing.
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Szdfan

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Szdfan »

Neto wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:41 am
JimFoxvog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:24 am
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:38 pm And yes, Putin is indeed to blame for every moment that Russian troops remain on Ukrainian soil. And every bit of death and destruction that results. No one else but Putin.
I disagree.

Everyone who chooses to obey a tyrant rather than disobey and take the consequences, or flee, has some partial responsibility also.

Image
I strongly agree. I've already mentioned this before, but otherwise you end up where I was before I took a position against Christians in war efforts, the idea that when I act as a subject of the nation where I hold citizenship, I am not acting personally, and do not have any personal responsibility. If this were true, then there would be no reason for anyone to ever reject any type of military involvement, including killing.
I think it's more complicated than that. Individuals can be held accountable for their personal actions (like war crimes) even when they are done in the name or the benefit of their country. The argument "I was following orders" was basically rejected at Nuremberg after WWII.

In the context of the current war, the West is accusing Putin of being a war criminal -- it will probably be difficult under international law to connect the actions of Russia's troops and military leadership with Putin. Soldiers and leaders may be responsible for war crimes they were directly involved in, it will be difficult to connect them directly to Putin.
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Ken
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

JimFoxvog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:24 am
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:38 pm And yes, Putin is indeed to blame for every moment that Russian troops remain on Ukrainian soil. And every bit of death and destruction that results. No one else but Putin.
I disagree.

Everyone who chooses to obey a tyrant rather than disobey and take the consequences, or flee, has some partial responsibility also.
I was referring to the decision-making process. It seems that there is no one in Russia other than Putin with the authority and agency to declare war. There was no vote in the Russian Duma to go to war in Ukraine as far as I know. And Ukraine did not declare war on Russia.

This is contrast to say the second Iraq War in which Congress had extensive debates leading up to the authorization of war and the Senate famously voted to authorize the use of force. As did, for example the UK Parliament under Tony Blair. So there were many culpable individuals with the authority to choose war or peace leading up to the second Iraq War, like Hillary Clinton, for example. The first Gulf War was, of course, authorized by the United Nations.

Are individual Russian soldiers culpable? Perhaps. But it seems many of them were told they were just on maneuvers, or that they were being welcomed into Ukraine and didn't actually know they were in a violent shooting war until the shooting actually started. What about Russian society in general? Perhaps. A lot of Russians are indeed fleeing Russia right now.

But I still contend that the decision to start this war and the future decision to end it rests largely with one man.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

From what i’ve gathered, since Vietnam, “wars” and “conflicts” are not the same.
From everything i’ve read, outside lib media, Putin has NOT declared war.

Lib media has “channeled” nuclear war since Day 1.

For myself, a simple civilian, guns+bombs represent war.
i realize others abide by other understandings, that may be more significant than my own. :?

2011 / Difference Between War and Conflict
https://www.differencebetween.com/diffe ... -conflict/
Human civilization is replete with instances of wars and conflicts.
In fact, at any given point of time, there are scores of conflicts, battles, skirmishes, and full scale wars carrying on between political entities and nations around the world.

All there [their] words smack of rift, tension and violence in some form but among these terms, war is decidedly the deadliest as it is of longer duration and declared while rest of the terms signify local level fights that cannot be considered as full fledged war.

In this article, we shall concentrate upon the concepts of war and conflict and try to find out the major differences between the two.

War
When we talk of wars, two wars that stand out in the minds of all people are the two world wars that tool place in the twentieth century and are living examples of destruction of lives and property.

If we count wars as open, declared, and intentional armed struggles between nations or political entities, more than 3000 wars have been fought on the face of the earth so far and despite concerted and united efforts by civilized nations, there seems to be no end to the use of this instrument of settling disputes between countries.

Though it is common to refer to armed conflict of long duration between two countries as classical wars, civil wars inside countries are also considered wars.

What would you call the latest call given by the ex President of US to fight against international terror.
He described it as war on terror, and war indeed it is, involving cooperation and active support of the international community.

It is clear than fisticuffs between individuals, gang wars, killings by mafia and gang lords etc cannot be classified as wars.

However, there is a lot of confusion in this regard as armed rebellions against a nation by a section of its population that feels oppressed are called as wars of independence by those who support these rebellions, and extremism or terrorism by those in power.

Mutual disdain between political parties and use of violence by them against each other does not constitute as war.
To be classified as a war, the conflict must be widespread, intentional, and declared. It requires mobilization of personnel and fighter or soldiers moving to front positions to defend territories.

Conflict
Conflict arises from disagreement between two parties where parties perceive a threat to their needs and interests.
It is a state of open and prolonged fighting between people, ideologies, and even countries.
It is a known fact that there are differences in the positions of parties involved in any conflict.
As long as the level of disagreement remains manageable, conflict remains verbal and can be solved (or at least raises hopes of settlement) through negotiations. It is when the levels of disagreements go beyond control that conflicts give rise to violence and armed struggles.

In an organization, there is always a conflict between the management and the employees because of differences in interests.
But there is a mechanism to resolve these conflicts like meetings, negotiations, and talks.

Similarly in a political system, there is always a conflict between the party in power and those in opposition, but it does not get out of hand as there are rules and regulations and also norms of conduct that keep discordant elements in check.

There are international conflicts that are mostly pertaining to disputes about geographical boundaries as countries claim a particular region as their own which is denied vehemently by those who control those areas.

One such international conflict is India Pakistan Kashmir conflict which has led to three full fledged wars between these two countries and remains a potential nuclear flash point with both countries now being nuclear powers.
Another international conflict that has remained unresolved for the last 5 decades is the Israel Palestine conflict with Israel on one side and most of the Arab states on the other side.
In brief: Difference Between War and Conflict

• War is intentional, disclosed, wide spread and long duration armed conflict between countries.

• War requires mobilization of troops and use of arms and ammunition to destroy enemy targets.

• Conflict is disagreement between parties where parties perceive threat to their interests and needs

• Conflict can be between individuals, communities, or even countries

• There are mechanisms to resolve conflicts but when they fail, conflicts can give rise to full [scale] wars (when involving countries)
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ohio jones

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by ohio jones »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:45 am From what i’ve gathered, since Vietnam, “wars” and “conflicts” are not the same.
From everything i’ve read, outside lib media, Putin has NOT declared war.
Reportedly, referring to what's happening in Ukraine as a war can get Russians arrested. To be on the safe side, some are now referring to Tolstoy's work as Special Military Operation and Peace.
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