LGBT and Christian Persecution

[GaryK]

I would say he sets them up only in the sense that he allows people to form them and in the sense that he can use them for his own purposes just like he might use an earthquake...or wild bears.

However they are not blest or sanctioned by him. Rather he is actively leading the building of his kingdom. Therefore, if we buy into the principles of his kingdom, we ought to espouse those to the worldly kingdom. And the damage that violence does needs to be confronted with salt and light.

But would you say the governments God sets up by allowance are condemned by God?

Yes I would. As Harlan noted, the Philistines were used by God to judge the Hebrews, however the Philistines were judged. God allows humans to work outside of his will, and in his great providence, some how he can use those things and turn them into good things, however, the sin is still judged. The greatest example of this of all time is the death of Jesus by one of those governments. What God allows, and can even use, are not his ways.

I just responded to barnhart.

I agree that God judges all sin and He at times uses governments to do it. The question I have is - are we as followers of Jesus called to judge or condemn these nations? I am very open to hearing about NT passages that indicate we are.

[joshuabgood]

But would you say the governments God sets up by allowance are condemned by God?

Yes I would. As Harlan noted, the Philistines were used by God to judge the Hebrews, however the Philistines were judged. God allows humans to work outside of his will, and in his great providence, some how he can use those things and turn them into good things, however, the sin is still judged. The greatest example of this of all time is the death of Jesus by one of those governments. What God allows, and can even use, are not his ways.

I just responded to barnhart.

I agree that God judges all sin and He at times uses governments to do it. The question I have is - are we as followers of Jesus called to judge or condemn these nations? I am very open to hearing about NT passages that indicate we are.

I don't know that I would say it is necessary to "judge" or "condemn" it. I'd rather think of it as confronting the evil of it as peacemakers. Telemachus as an example reportedly confronted the violence of Caesar and the Roman coliseum by physically interposing his body and demanding the violence end in the name of Jesus. And was promptly run through...however, the impact of his witness was so great that he was reportedly the last man killed in the Coliseum. But as far as condemning the Russian kids that are sent on this fools errand by Putin, or coerced into the army by Zelensky, no, I don't think that is necessary. I feel sorry for them and their families.

[HondurasKeiser]

Gary, would you condemn, al quaeda, the mafia, the Taliban, Hezbollah, the Confederacy, and the rebellious 13 colonies, and Henry the 8th?

What makes a coercive principality a ruler by divine right?

I generally do not involve myself in either condemning or promoting worldly political systems. I suppose only God can answer all the questions about why He sets up coercive principalities but I believe one of the reasons He does is because of the sin humanity has chosen to be involved in.

I would say he sets them up only in the sense that he allows people to form them and in the sense that he can use them for his own purposes just like he might use an earthquake...or wild bears.

However they are not blest or sanctioned by him. Rather he is actively leading the building of his kingdom. Therefore, if we buy into the principles of his kingdom, we ought to espouse those to the worldly kingdom. And the damage that violence does needs to be confronted with salt and light.

I don’t understand how you square that with scripture that clearly states that God ordains them.

[HondurasKeiser]

But would you say the governments God sets up by allowance are condemned by God?

God used several nations to discipline Israel through war, invasions, and captivity, but that did not insulate the aggressor nations from judgement. You can read God's condemnation of them in the prophets.

But what are the specific condemnations of those nations?

[joshuabgood]

I generally do not involve myself in either condemning or promoting worldly political systems. I suppose only God can answer all the questions about why He sets up coercive principalities but I believe one of the reasons He does is because of the sin humanity has chosen to be involved in.

I would say he sets them up only in the sense that he allows people to form them and in the sense that he can use them for his own purposes just like he might use an earthquake...or wild bears.

However they are not blest or sanctioned by him. Rather he is actively leading the building of his kingdom. Therefore, if we buy into the principles of his kingdom, we ought to espouse those to the worldly kingdom. And the damage that violence does needs to be confronted with salt and light.

I don’t understand how you square that with scripture that clearly states that God ordains them.

It requires a little bit of mental gymnastics to be sure, but it seems obvious that a casual reading doesn't work for Romans 13...as clearly the Roman government was, in the end, not "God's servant for good" to Paul, and was, in fact, "a terror to those" of good works. Further, it seems obvious a simple "divine right" reading doesn't work in situations like Lancaster county in 1776, or Harrisonburg in 1865. Further, it seems obvious a simple reading doesn't work because Hitler/Nero/Henry the VIII etc are not godly ministers, Henry's protestations aside.

Therefore, and as a principle axiom of my hermeneutic, I'd rather harmonize Roman's 13 with the teachings and witness of Jesus rather than the other way around.

So I see Romans 13 as a more or less proverbial teaching that is generally true but not a prescription of divine right...or some divinely sanctioned authority that escapes the teachings/witness of the real King.

That is how I square it...and those gymnastics are easier for me than calling Hitler, or Osama, or Henry the VIII God's annointed minister who exercise godly (that is Christly) authority.

[barnhart]

But would you say the governments God sets up by allowance are condemned by God?

God used several nations to discipline Israel through war, invasions, and captivity, but that did not insulate the aggressor nations from judgement. You can read God's condemnation of them in the prophets.

I was thinking about in our day when I asked the question. If this implies that being the aggressor nation always brings the judgement of God, then Russia is not alone in an impending judgement.

I think all sin, including all violence will be judged, that is why I don't need to do it. As Romans 12 teaches, do not take revenge but "leave room for God's judgement."

Are you aware of any NT passages where Jesus or the Apostles teach followers of Jesus to condemn aggressor nations or the evil that is done by these political systems? I'm aware of the ones that call us to pray for, pay taxes and obey earthly governments.

Not every situation relating to Government is covered, more general principles. But I agree it is not the calling of the church to judge the world, Jesus will do that. I see the calling of the church along the lines of "weep with those who weep." Would you weep if your home was bombed and you and your family were forced to flee, then weep with those in that situation. I also think we can/should say something in the face of evil. If the US were invading and bombing Russia, I would hope to speak out against it as a way of loving my Russian brothers.

What might happen in this war if the streets of every major city in Russia were full of peaceful protests asking for an end to the war.

[joshuabgood]

If at least the Orthodox Christians on both sides would stop killing each other...and the priests on both sides would quit blessing it.

[Josh]

Some of what bootstrap says here resonates with me.

Where do empathy and moral judgment play in here? As a Christian, there must be a way of calling out aggression and warmongering (like the invasion of a neighboring country and the wanton destruction of innocent lives and property) without being drawn into overcoming evil with evil. Jesus does that when he called out those who oppress and exploit...he did so without leading a proletariate revolution (something I believe he would have been socially pressured to do). Instead, he responded to the evil he faced by calling people to face down wrong through the radically disruptive path of love and non-resistance. Aloofness to avoid entanglement seems like the sin of the Priest and the Levite in the parable of the good Samaritan.

A person hoping to stop a fight by calling out a mugger's brutality doesn't feel like the same situation as "picking sides" in a street fight of co-belligerents.

At the same time, cheering on as the West pours weaponry into Ukraine would be like handing the mugging victim a gun to "settle the score."

The Christian response in all of this is the response of the Samaritan - to practice empathy, bind wounds, and minister hope and healing to the oppressed. Blessed are the peacemakers!

When one makes a list of enemies of the United States past and present (Boot’s list was Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, Syria under Assad, and Germany under Hitler), I find myself giving pause to just how much this is the “kingdom of God” versus merely the Empire of America.

The thing I consistently call out here are those who seem very focused on the evils of those who are not aligned with the Empire of the West, but pay almost no heed to the evils the Empire of the West is doing right now. Anyone who is speaking up about Ukraine more than Yemen betrays themselves as one of such people.

[Josh]

Dan Z,

Secondarily, as a New Covenant Christian, I also struggle with the idea that Christ is somehow working out His divine will by allowing or raising up a warmonger for the destruction of innocent lives - something that is diametrically opposed to his teachings. (In the same way that I don't think Jesus directs hurricanes to punish sin-filled cities, or deadly plagues to chastize gay people.). This seems like an Old Covenant concept that contradicts the witness and way of God in Christ Jesus. I believe we can say without hesitation that warmongering is wrong and against the will of Christ...in the same way that abortion is wrong and against the will of Jesus.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and God and Jesus are one and the same.

The “Old Testament” God who ordered the Israelite armies to slaughter entire peoples is the same God and same Jesus we serve today. The difference is Jesus is ordering his followers not to kill people today. But God certainly reserved for himself choosing to install kings, depose kings, and to allow wars to happen. He just tells his followers to stop fighting in those wars for earthly kings.

[GaryK]

God used several nations to discipline Israel through war, invasions, and captivity, but that did not insulate the aggressor nations from judgement. You can read God's condemnation of them in the prophets.

I was thinking about in our day when I asked the question. If this implies that being the aggressor nation always brings the judgement of God, then Russia is not alone in an impending judgement.

I think all sin, including all violence will be judged, that is why I don't need to do it. As Romans 12 teaches, do not take revenge but "leave room for God's judgement."

Are you aware of any NT passages where Jesus or the Apostles teach followers of Jesus to condemn aggressor nations or the evil that is done by these political systems? I'm aware of the ones that call us to pray for, pay taxes and obey earthly governments.

Not every situation relating to Government is covered, more general principles. But I agree it is not the calling of the church to judge the world, Jesus will do that. I see the calling of the church along the lines of "weep with those who weep." Would you weep if your home was bombed and you and your family were forced to flee, then weep with those in that situation. I also think we can/should say something in the face of evil. If the US were invading and bombing Russia, I would hope to speak out against it as a way of loving my Russian brothers.

What might happen in this war if the streets of every major city in Russia were full of peaceful protests asking for an end to the war.

What are some of the general principles you have in mind?

I take it you would participate in protests if you feel what the government is doing is evil?