Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

2018 / “Russia Is Not the Soviet Union”
The bottom line is that Russia is a conventional, somewhat conservative, power, whereas the Soviet Union was a messianic, totalitarian power.
https://www.cato.org/commentary/russia-not-soviet-union
The American public and U.S. policymakers both have an unfortunate tendency to conflate Russia with the Soviet Union.
That habit emerged again with the media and political reaction to the Helsinki summit between President Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. Trump’s critics accused him of appeasing Putin and even of committing treason for not doing enough to defend American interests and for being far too solicitous to the Russian leader. They regarded that as an unforgivable offense because Russia supposedly poses a dire threat to the United States. Hostile pundits and politicians charged that Moscow’s alleged interference in the 2016 U.S. elections constituted an attack on America akin to Pearl Harbor and 9–11.

Trump’s supplicant behavior, opponents contended, stood in shameful contrast to the behavior of previous presidents toward tyrants, especially toward the Kremlin’s threats to America and the West. They trotted out Ronald Reagan’s “evil empire” speech and his later demand that Mikhail Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin Wall as examples of how Trump should have acted.

The problem with citing such examples is that they applied to a different country: the Soviet Union.
Too many Americans act as though there is no meaningful difference between that entity and Russia.

Worse still, U.S. leaders have embraced the same kind of uncompromising, hostile policies that Washington pursued to contain Soviet power. It is a major blunder that has increasingly poisoned relations with Moscow since the demise of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) at the end of 1991.

The bottom line is that Russia is a conventional, somewhat conservative, power,
whereas the Soviet Union was a messianic, totalitarian power.

One obvious difference between the Soviet Union and Russia is that the Soviet governing elite embraced Marxism‐​Leninism and its objective of world revolution. Today’s Russia is not a messianic power. Its economic system is a rather mundane variety of corrupt crony capitalism, not rigid state socialism. The political system is a conservative autocracy with aspects of a rigged democracy,
not a one‐​party dictatorship that brooks no dissent whatsoever.

Russia is hardly a Western‐​style democracy, but neither is it a continuation of the Soviet Union’s horrifically brutal totalitarianism.
Indeed, the country’s political and social philosophy is quite different from that of its predecessor. For example, the Orthodox Church had no meaningful influence during the Soviet era—something that was unsurprising, given communism’s official policy of atheism.
But today, the Orthodox Church has a considerable influence in Putin’s Russia, especially on social issues.

The bottom line is that Russia is a conventional, somewhat conservative, power, whereas the Soviet Union was a messianic, totalitarian power. That’s a rather large and significant difference, and U.S. policy needs to reflect that realization.

An equally crucial difference is that the Soviet Union was a global power (and, for a time, arguably a superpower) with global ambitions and capabilities to match. It controlled an empire in Eastern Europe and cultivated allies and clients around the world, including in such far‐​flung places as Cuba, Vietnam, and Angola. The USSR also intensely contested the United States for influence in all of those areas.

Conversely, Russia is merely a regional power with very limited extra‐​regional reach.
The Kremlin’s ambitions are focused heavily on the near abroad, aimed at trying to block the eastward creep of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the U.S.-led intrusion into Russia’s core security zone.
The orientation seems far more defensive than offensive.

It would be difficult for Russia to execute anything more than a very geographically limited expansionist agenda, even if it has one.
The Soviet Union was the world’s number two economic power, second only to the United States.

Russia has an economy roughly the size of Canada’s and is no longer ranked even in the global top ten.
It also has only three‐​quarters of the Soviet Union’s territory (much of which is nearly‐​empty Siberia) and barely half the population of the old USSR. If that were not enough, that population is shrinking and is afflicted with an assortment of public health problems (especially rampant alcoholism).

All of these factors should make it evident that Russia is not a credible rival, much less an existential threat, to the United States and its democratic system. Russia’s power is a pale shadow of the Soviet Union’s.

The only undiminished source of clout is the country’s sizeable nuclear arsenal.
But while nuclear weapons are the ultimate deterrent, they are not very useful for power projection or warfighting, unless the political leadership wants to risk national suicide. And there is no evidence whatsoever that Putin and his oligarch backers are suicidal.
Quite the contrary, they seem wedded to accumulating ever greater wealth and perks.

Finally, Russia’s security interests actually overlap substantially with America’s—most notably regarding the desire to combat radical Islamic terrorism.

If U.S. leaders did not insist on pursuing provocative policies, such as expanding NATO to Russia’s border, undermining longtime Russian clients in the Balkans (Serbia) and the Middle East (Syria), and excluding Russia from key international economic institutions such as the G‑7, there would be relatively few occasions when vital American and Russian interests collide.

A fundamental shift in U.S. policy is needed, but that requires a major change in America’s national psychology.

For more than four decades, Americans saw (and were told to regard) the Soviet Union as a mortal threat to the nation’s security and its most cherished values of freedom and democracy.

Unfortunately, a mental reset did not take place when the USSR dissolved, and a quasi‐​democratic Russia emerged as one of the successor states.

Too many Americans (including political leaders and policymakers) act as though they are still confronting the Soviet Union.

It will be the ultimate tragic irony if, having avoided war with a totalitarian global adversary, America now stumbles into war because of an out‐​of‐​date image of, and policy toward, a conventional, declining regional power. Yet unless U.S. leaders change both their mindsets and their policies toward Russia, that outcome is a very real possibility.
Ergo, 2022: Ukraine

U.S. politicians have, at best, been extraordinarily lazy regarding refusing to acknowledge Russia as a different entity from the USSR.
They loved having a stated adversary, were unwilling to let it go. Even after it had gone.

It’s not unlike awful hollywood formula movies. They see a winning pattern, and proceed to run it into the ground.
hollywood is ‘way too influential in D.C. (historically, entertainers were relegated to “bottom” social+power status) not made wealthy+powerful. hollywood is convinced, if they can make a successful movie ABOUT being POTUS, they can use the same methods to create (whatever story they want to see in D.C., and in the world). Flamboyant fantasies. No foundation. Smoke+mirrors.
https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/actor/education/

There are actual diplomats that dedicate their lives to: diplomacy.
ha. “ain’t nobody got time for that.” (return attention to Beyonce.)

Now what? How to save face without destroying the entire world / enabling China to just take all?
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Neto

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Neto »

Nor should the USSR have been referred to as 'Russia'. (I did inherit a kindly attitude toward 'Russia' as in the Russian Empire, because it was a haven of safety and freedom for most of the time my people lived there as refugees (roughly 100 years in the case of my own ancestors). But the USSR was nothing like that for those who stayed behind. Most people forget that after the Soviet government collapsed, there was actually a Russian republic (I do not remember the actual name) for some years, one with which the USA had friendly relations. (At least I have that impression, although we did not live in the States during that period of time.) But corruption caused its collapse as well, and it gradually morphed into what we see today. (My recollections. I did not look anything up about this.)
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temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

Neto wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:54 am Nor should the USSR have been referred to as 'Russia'.
(I did inherit a kindly attitude toward 'Russia' as in the Russian Empire, because it was a haven of safety and freedom for most of the time my people lived there as refugees (roughly 100 years in the case of my own ancestors).

But the USSR was nothing like that for those who stayed behind.
Most people forget that after the Soviet government collapsed, there was actually a Russian republic (I do not remember the actual name) for some years, one with which the USA had friendly relations. (At least I have that impression, although we did not live in the States during that period of time.) But corruption caused its collapse as well, and it gradually morphed into what we see today.
(My recollections. I did not look anything up about this.)
(i stumbled on this when i found the Cato piece above.) This seems to be the current name. (??)

Russian Federation
The Russian Federation (Росси́йская Федера́ция, Rossiyskaya Federatsiya), commonly known as Russia (Rossiya), is a transcontinental country extending over much of northern Eurasia (Asia and Europe).
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... Federation

i admit, i’m generally embarrassed about U.S. ignorance, esp of foreign countries, esp since 24/7 “news” cycles, the internet (dubbed the information era). so much potential! yet. ignorance serves “the few” well. and they know how to guarantee it.

Regarding Ukraine, it’s evident, plenty was known, foreseen, warned over years. Intellectual laziness is preferred.
Now this.

Diplomacy hinges on acknowledging both sides. Tone deafness doesn’t work.
What bothers me is the apparent lack of interest in diplomacy by Left-West politicians and media.
Last edited by temporal1 on Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Neto

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Neto »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:31 am
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:54 am Nor should the USSR have been referred to as 'Russia'.
(I did inherit a kindly attitude toward 'Russia' as in the Russian Empire, because it was a haven of safety and freedom for most of the time my people lived there as refugees (roughly 100 years in the case of my own ancestors).

But the USSR was nothing like that for those who stayed behind.
Most people forget that after the Soviet government collapsed, there was actually a Russian republic (I do not remember the actual name) for some years, one with which the USA had friendly relations. (At least I have that impression, although we did not live in the States during that period of time.) But corruption caused its collapse as well, and it gradually morphed into what we see today.
(My recollections. I did not look anything up about this.)
(i stumbled on this when i found the Cato piece above.) This seems to be the current name. (??)

Russian Federation
The Russian Federation (Росси́йская Федера́ция, Rossiyskaya Federatsiya), commonly known as Russia (Rossiya), is a transcontinental country extending over much of northern Eurasia (Asia and Europe).
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... Federation

i admit, i’m generally embarrassed about U.S. ignorance, esp of foreign countries, esp since 24/7 “news” cycles, the internet (dubbed the information era). so much potential! yet. ignorance serves “the few” well. and they know how to guarantee it.

Regarding Ukraine, it’s evident, plenty was known, foreseen, warned over years. Intellectual laziness is preferred.
Now this.

Diplomacy hinges on acknowledging both sides. Tone deafness doesn’t work.
Yes, the correct name now is "Russian Federation", which I try to use consistently in reference to the current nation of Russia, but I don't know if there was a different name used between the fall of the Soviet Union and Putin's gradual rise to total power. (I think, without looking it up, the period I'm referring to was roughly from 1991 until around 1998. Maybe there never was a different name. It always irked me when people referred to the USSR as "Russia', so I try to be precise myself.)
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temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

Neto wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:41 am
Yes, the correct name now is "Russian Federation", which I try to use consistently in reference to the current nation of Russia, but I don't know if there was a different name used between the fall of the Soviet Union and Putin's gradual rise to total power. (I think, without looking it up, the period I'm referring to was roughly from 1991 until around 1998. Maybe there never was a different name.

It always irked me when people referred to the USSR as "Russia'.)
Thanks. i don’t know, either.
These kinds of things bother me, i think they do not help forward movement.
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Neto

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Neto »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:45 am
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:41 am
Yes, the correct name now is "Russian Federation", which I try to use consistently in reference to the current nation of Russia, but I don't know if there was a different name used between the fall of the Soviet Union and Putin's gradual rise to total power. (I think, without looking it up, the period I'm referring to was roughly from 1991 until around 1998. Maybe there never was a different name.

It always irked me when people referred to the USSR as "Russia'.)
Thanks. i don’t know, either.
These kinds of things bother me, i think they do not help forward movement.
I tried to look this up to be sure, but I didn't gain much from what little time I have now for this. Some sources call it the Russian Federation from 1991 on, while there are also references to the name Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS for short). This, and the term Former Soviet States, may be what I was remembering, the latter being more in the forefront in my memory. But as I said, we were not living in the States during the Yeltsin era, so my concept of American attitudes toward the new government there may not be accurate at all.
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Josh

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:37 pm
nett wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:30 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:40 pm

Seriously Josh?

Not everything in the world is about gay rights. In fact very little in the word and especially international affairs is about gay rights. Most certainly not US-Chinese relations.

You do realize that most of the rest of the world has left you behind on this subject? Even the Chinese are about as supportive of LGBT rights and gay marriage as Americans, and support it by very wide margins. The latest international polling on the subject found that 13% of Americans object to gay marriage or civil unions while in China the percentage is a very similar 19%. It is only Russia that is outlier on this subject. I guess that is why you such a Russia apologist here?

Here is the most recent international polling which shows that the Chinese are much closer to the west than they are to Russia on this subect: https://www.ipsos.com/en/lgbt-pride-202 ... attraction
Ken, Do you believe homosexuality is an abomination before God, or do you think it's pretty much ok with Him?
What I am surprised by is how much you and Josh are invested in denying civil rights to a portion of the population, both in the US and abroad. It seems to be your overriding domestic and foreign policy issue. Far exceeding pretty much every other Biblical commandment, most of which are far more explicit. I don't see you advocating for putting Matthew 19:24 into legislation, for example.

I'm not gay but I'm also not interested in legislating how anyone else lives their life and I expect the same courtesy in return. From gay people, from conservative Christians, from conservative Muslims, or anyone else.

Show me any New Testament text which suggests that Jesus advocated that ANY of his teachings should be legislated into secular law. Or that it should be the mission of Christians to do so. Did Jesus or Paul go to Rome to lobby the Roman Senate to legislate Christian teachings into Roman law?

This is a thread about the invasion of one sovereign nation by another. Why you guys think everything in the world is about gay marriage is beyond me.
Ken,

Can you answer nett’s question?

Is it an abomination before God, or do you think it’s pretty much ok with Him?
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Bootstrap

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:55 am
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:37 pm This is a thread about the invasion of one sovereign nation by another. Why you guys think everything in the world is about gay marriage is beyond me.
Ken,

Can you answer nett’s question?

Is it an abomination before God, or do you think it’s pretty much ok with Him?
I think gay sex and gay marriage are sinful.

I don't think Putin's invasion of Ukraine is about gay marriage. You seem to be in favor of Putin invading Ukraine and killing tens of thousands of people on both sides, civilians and military, on some theory that this will stop moral decay.

Maybe we should just point people to Jesus and the Kingdom of God instead? The whole idea that the Kingdom of God needs "bad boy" bullies to institute morality is just disgusting. The idea that violence and killing are the way to bring righteousness is completely at odds with basic Mennonite beliefs. Associating ourselves with blatantly immoral people like Putin and some other political figures also seems completely at odds with basic Mennonite beliefs.

Here's our role in the Ukranian war:

“True evangelical faith is of such a nature it cannot lie dormant, but spreads itself out in all kinds of righteousness and fruits of love;
it dies to flesh and blood;
it destroys all lusts and forbidden desires;
it seeks, serves and fears God in its inmost soul;
it clothes the naked;
it feeds the hungry;
it comforts the sorrowful;
it shelters the destitute;
it aids and consoles the sad;
it does good to those who do it harm;
b it serves those that harm it;
it prays for those who persecute it;
it teaches, admonishes and judges us with the Word of the Lord;
it seeks those who are lost;
it binds up what is wounded;
it heals the sick;
it saves what is strong;
it becomes all things to all people.
The persecution, suffering and anguish that come to it for the sake of the Lord’s truth have become a glorious joy and comfort to it.”
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:55 am
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:37 pm
nett wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:30 pm

Ken, Do you believe homosexuality is an abomination before God, or do you think it's pretty much ok with Him?
What I am surprised by is how much you and Josh are invested in denying civil rights to a portion of the population, both in the US and abroad. It seems to be your overriding domestic and foreign policy issue. Far exceeding pretty much every other Biblical commandment, most of which are far more explicit. I don't see you advocating for putting Matthew 19:24 into legislation, for example.

I'm not gay but I'm also not interested in legislating how anyone else lives their life and I expect the same courtesy in return. From gay people, from conservative Christians, from conservative Muslims, or anyone else.

Show me any New Testament text which suggests that Jesus advocated that ANY of his teachings should be legislated into secular law. Or that it should be the mission of Christians to do so. Did Jesus or Paul go to Rome to lobby the Roman Senate to legislate Christian teachings into Roman law?

This is a thread about the invasion of one sovereign nation by another. Why you guys think everything in the world is about gay marriage is beyond me.
Ken,

Can you answer nett’s question?

Is it an abomination before God, or do you think it’s pretty much ok with Him?
What does this have to do with current events or Russia? If you want to argue about gay rights and theology feel free to start a thread in the appropriate forum.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:09 amU.S. politicians have, at best, been extraordinarily lazy regarding refusing to acknowledge Russia as a different entity from the USSR.
They loved having a stated adversary, were unwilling to let it go. Even after it had gone.
To be fair, the Russians are pretty lazy and confused about it too.

We have heard here in this thread about Putin's claim that Russia was given "assurances" that NATO would not expand eastward. Well no, even if true, the Russian Federation did not exist at that that time so it would have been impossible to give "assurances" to a state that did not exist. Lithuania and Georgia and Ukraine were all part of the USSR. Maybe NATO should negotiate with them directly about a new security arrangement since they are just as legitimate successors to the USSSR as Russia is.

We have also heard that Ukraine has historically been part of Russia. Several commentators here have made that argument as has Putin. But no, Ukraine has NEVER been a part of the Russian Federation. In fact, Ukraine is older than the Russian Federation and has no connection to the Russian Federation.

The Russian Federation currently sits in the United Nations seat that was granted to the USSR when the United Nations was formed, and still wields its security council veto. But the Russian Federation was never formally granted this position in the UN. Perhaps we should give the USSR security council seat to Lithuania or Ukraine as they are equal successors to the USSR as the Russian Federation was.

The government of the Russian Federation as represented by Putin seems to want to claim successorship to the USSR (or the older Russian Empire) when it is convenient for them to do so for political or ideological reasons. But as you point out, they are not the USSR. It seems to me that it is the Russians who are confused and need to be set straight on this point.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
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