Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[nett]

Ken S., as I understand him, Nett is looking at this with a strict separation between what is addressed to believers (as for example your quote), and what might have been addressed to secular entities, specifically nations. So in a way these injunctions given to us as believers provide no clarity for what a nation might be told.

Thank you for actually understanding what I'm saying.

I think, however, that the injunctions given to believers express the will of God for mankind, and as such, they may be considered as an expression of the kind of morality that God wants (and expects) even non-believers and secular nations to abide by. We can see all throughout the OT story that God judges the wicked actions of non-believing ethnic groups or nations, even when he uses those evil actions to correct his own people.

I have a hard reconciling God commanding Israel to wipe nations off the face of the earth with the view you're expressing here. Most on this forum would condemn Israel following God's command as war crimes, illegal, and atrocities.

There is no change to the biblical mandate for nations in the new covenant, the new covenant only changes things for the followers of Christ, and I don't really think nations can follow Christ, since following Christ means abdicating the use of force, which would make any nation immediately cease to exist.

I do there is a biblical case to be made that we shouldn't be swayed by every sensational media report that comes out though...

[nett]

How can an earthly nation engage in war without encouraging, even demanding, that individual people directly disobey Jesus?

It's especially problematic in this conflict, where the Orthodox churches on each side are also adding their encouragement.

The fact that God uses governments to accomplish his purposes doesn't make them any better in His sight.

It also does not absolve them (or the people in them) from eventual judgment for their actions.

How do you think God feels about this? What kind of judgement happened in the OT because of this kind of thing?

[Soloist]

Any chance we can stop posting those pictures? a link still says the same thing ya know...

[temporal1]

Page 95:

I'm not defending Russian aggression,
and if this thread weren't so active, I probably wouldn't have posted anything.

If anything, I'm defending that going to war is a natural function of a nation. It's sad to me that physical death and destruction gets so much more emotional attention on this forum than spiritual death and destruction.
I take Matthew 10:28 literally, I hope everyone else does.

I am interested to see what will come of Russia being cut off from all of the western degeneracy.
If that continues, it might be fertile ground for the gospel.

I think nations going to war is preferable to nations turning to Sodom, I see the west as Sodom right now.
Sodom is always condemned in scripture, nations going to war is not.

I would prefer to be killed in a violent war than suffer spiritual demise in the west.
Maybe most people don't feel that way, I don't know.

“natural function of a nation” is not the divine nature of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:28
https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-28.htm

27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight;
what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the housetops.

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?
Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.…

[temporal1]

Page 95:

And now we published an article on Ukraine's perspective of the invasion.

https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... ective.pdf

[temporal1]

Dennis Prager tries to separate “liberal” from the “Left.”
Probably worthwhile, maybe esp for those who vote. But for purposes of discussions, too.

“ Prager: America Caught Between Russia and China Externally and the Left Internally”
https://heartlanddailynews.com/2022/03/ ... nternally/

America is caught between an external and an internal threat.
The external is an economically aggressive and America-hating China and a nuclear-equipped, America-hating Russia;
the internal is a non-nuclear, America-hating Left.

(As I always note, “Left” is not the same as “liberal”;
in fact, leftism poses a mortal threat to liberalism. ..

The greatest contemporary tragedy in American life is that most liberals are unwilling to acknowledge this
and continue to vote for the Left.) .. ..

[ken_sylvania]

In what way did Jesus not address earthly nations' responsibilities and actions? There is no such thing as an earthly nation that is not comprised of individual people - individual people for whom Jesus died and who he has called to follow in his steps. Individual people who he has commanded to love their enemies.

How can an earthly nation engage in war without encouraging, even demanding, that individual people directly disobey Jesus?

If you are attempting to reconcile some kind of theory that supports nations engaging in war, with Jesus instructions to be peaceable and gentle, I can understand why you would struggle to reach and understanding. It would give me a headache too!

To follow this line of thought, you have to disavow police force and any kind of national defense. To do so would be a nation abdicating its biblical role, which is punishing evildoers.

Applying Jesus' commandments for his followers to the administration of nations just doesn't work, and every attempt to do so has created church-states that always turn out badly. I realize this is very cognitively dissonant for westerners who believe America is someone a "Christian nation". I don't know what to tell you.

I find nothing in Jesus' teaching to suggest that persons who defend their nations with violence will experience His blessing and forgiveness.

I agree that followers of Jesus can't administer nations - because administration of nations cannot be done in a Godly manner. The force or threat of force to administer a nation is antithetical to Jesus' teachings. Invasion of other countries, and violent defense against invasion by other countries are both wrong.

Are you suggesting that people who kill people in the name of national defense can expect salvation if they do not repent of such killings? Or are you suggesting that people who kill evildoers are doing what God wants them to do but that God will punish them for doing what He wants them to do?

[Soloist]

We believe and confess that God has ordained power and authority, and set them to punish the evil, and protect the good, to govern the world, and maintain countries and cities, with their subjects, in good order and regulation; and that we, therefore, may not despise, revile, or resist the same, but must acknowledge and honor them as the ministers of God, and be subject and obedient unto them, yea, ready for all good works, especially in that which is not contrary to the law, will, and commandment of God; also faithfully pay custom, tribute, and taxes, and to render unto them their dues, even also as the Son of God taught and practiced, and commanded His disciples to do; that we, moreover, must constantly and earnestly pray to the Lord for them and their welfare, and for the prosperity of the country, that we may dwell under its protection, earn our livelihood, and lead a quiet, peaceable life, with all godliness and honesty; and, furthermore, that the Lord would recompense unto them, here, and afterwards in eternity, all benefits, liberty, and favor which we enjoy here under their praiseworthy administration. Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:17; Matthew 22:21; Matthew 17:27; 1 Timothy 2:1.

Article 13 Dordrecht Confession

Would you agree or disagree with this?

[Josh]

Neither side is great in the Donbas war. Both the Azov battalion and the Russian-backed separatists have a long history of well-documented human rights violations and crimes. The attempt to portray either side in this as the "good guys" is highly problematic to me. The war in Donbas is a horrific, tragic mess, but I also believe that Russia is the aggressor here, by supporting separatist forces in an attempt to take land from Ukraine.

I don't necessarily disagree, but does being the aggressor imply ethical inferiority? What standard of ethics condemns a nation for being proactive, or expansionist?

Declaring war is in itself an ethically dubious act, in that it almost guarantees tremendous human loss and suffering. So, perhaps the more important question is, what standard of ethics justifies the death and destruction brought about by invading a neighboring sovereign country?

What standard of ethics leads you to believe a “sovereign country” is worthwhile of fighting for?

[Josh]

But again, the American invasion of Iraq doesn't justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

I continue to contend that it is very difficult to condemn unprovoked invasion on a Biblical basis. No one seems to want to discuss this though. Maybe because it presents a problem for establishing moral superiority.

I think it's easy. Jesus said "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you. I cannot see how any rational person could believe that an unprovoked invasion constitutes obedience to this teaching.

But fighting back because you think you were invaded doesn’t constitute obedience to this teaching either.

That’s the crux here.