Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[nett]

This^ Russians we know here in Germany believe Putin wholeheartedly. These are normally lovely people, warm, friendly and very open. But they really dislike Ukraine and believe that the Ukrainians are committing atrocities on their own people and just about every other narrative Putin has spun. There is a real fear that the Ukrainians will also start using chemical warfare.

There were atrocities committed by the Ukrainian military in the Donbas though. That's not Putin's spin. It was actually pretty widely reported prior to the invasion, but the international community did not seem to care.

For example?

It's been memory holed, best for you not to engage in thought crime.

[Ken]

There were atrocities committed by the Ukrainian military in the Donbas though. That's not Putin's spin. It was actually pretty widely reported prior to the invasion, but the international community did not seem to care.

For example?

google.com/search?q=donbas+atrocities+2015

That search brings up articles like this one from the CBC:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/russia-in ... -1.6362787

Which states that Russian-backed forces are responsible for war crimes in the Donbass Region and not the Ukrainian military

Or this article from Human Rights Watch which blames Russian-backed separatist forces for most of the war crimes in the Donbass: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/11/12/ukr ... rd-justice#

[temporal1]

Neto:
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself. We never had running hot water in Brazil. Except when I had rigged a grid of 3 inch sewer pipe in a trough at the edge of the roof, and piped that into our kitchen. This was out at the city, on the mission center, not in the village. The only warm water we ever had there was heated in a pot, on the stove. It just struck me funny....)

No. really. he was not long out of college, working at Boeing on 787s. engineer’s brain, we don’t share that.
i was thankful there were a few weeks before the trip so he could learn a few things to prepare. he was literally going to grab his backpack, get on a plane, and go. knowing nothing. (that memory still gives me a heart attack.) so. we reviewed required shots for leaving, esp for reentry requirements. we studied the State Department website. studied how to avoid being an obvious target for crime. how not to drive at night. how roads are not great, and road hazards. i wasn’t exactly sure how he’d grown up in our home AND gone through college, without realizing international borders are a thing .. but, to be fair, his engineering brain always had a bit of a Mister Magoo quality. Even as a toddler.

his friends looked out for him. he’s easy-going and likable. the Holy Spirit watches over.
if you have a problem, he’s a good one to have around. boys. o.my.

[nett]

For example?

google.com/search?q=donbas+atrocities+2015

That search brings up articles like this one from the CBC:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/russia-in ... -1.6362787

Which states that Russian-backed forces are responsible for war crimes in the Donbass Region and not the Ukrainian military

Or this article from Human Rights Watch which blames Russian-backed separatist forces for most of the war crimes in the Donbass: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/11/12/ukr ... rd-justice#

I want to say a lot of mean things, but I will refrain. Try harder maybe?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... er-forces/

[Szdfan]

For example?

google.com/search?q=donbas+atrocities+2015

That search brings up articles like this one from the CBC:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/russia-in ... -1.6362787

Which states that Russian-backed forces are responsible for war crimes in the Donbass Region and not the Ukrainian military

Or this article from Human Rights Watch which blames Russian-backed separatist forces for most of the war crimes in the Donbass: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/11/12/ukr ... rd-justice#

Neither side is great in the Donbas war. Both the Azov battalion and the Russian-backed separatists have a long history of well-documented human rights violations and crimes. The attempt to portray either side in this as the "good guys" is highly problematic to me. The war in Donbas is a horrific, tragic mess, but I also believe that Russia is the aggressor here, by supporting separatist forces in an attempt to take land from Ukraine.

[Josh]

Of note is that nearly all wars have no “good guy”. America relies a lot on myths that we are the good guys in our wars (Revolutionary War, for example, or the Union in the Civil War). Of course, both sides actually were pretty bad guys on both those conflicts.

Since America is siding against Russia, the American mindset is that the Russians are the bad guys and that the Ukrainian government is 100% all good guys. This filters down right to Ken’s belief system that the Ukrainian government could never have done anything wrong in Donbas.

[nett]

Neither side is great in the Donbas war. Both the Azov battalion and the Russian-backed separatists have a long history of well-documented human rights violations and crimes. The attempt to portray either side in this as the "good guys" is highly problematic to me. The war in Donbas is a horrific, tragic mess, but I also believe that Russia is the aggressor here, by supporting separatist forces in an attempt to take land from Ukraine.

I don't necessarily disagree, but does being the aggressor imply ethical inferiority? What standard of ethics condemns a nation for being proactive, or expansionist?

[Ken]

Of note is that nearly all wars have no “good guy”. America relies a lot on myths that we are the good guys in our wars (Revolutionary War, for example, or the Union in the Civil War). Of course, both sides actually were pretty bad guys on both those conflicts.

Since America is siding against Russia, the American mindset is that the Russians are the bad guys and that the Ukrainian government is 100% all good guys. This filters down right to Ken’s belief system that the Ukrainian government could never have done anything wrong in Donbas.

Not at all Josh. We are sophisticated enough to compartmentalize.

We can look at this particular invasion by Russia that started in late February and make judgements about this particular war without concluding that everything that Ukrainians or the Ukrainian government have ever done in this history is acceptable or perfect. Or that Ukraine "deserved" to get invaded they have corruption in their past or whatever.

We do the same exact thing in every other walk of life. I can read articles about sex crimes or financial crimes committed by conservative Anabaptists and even conservative Anabaptist leaders without concluding that the entire faith is tainted and flawed. Or that the victims of such crimes "deserved" their fate because they were not perfect. This is no different. We can look at and judge the actions of Russia on their own merits without whitewashing every other problem in Ukrainian history.

I made no claim whatsoever that the Ukrainian government never did anything wrong in the Donbass. Nett asserted that it was the Ukrainian government that was responsible for atrocities in the Donbass and that it was well documented in the press. I simply asked for an example of this press coverage. When I do as you suggest and google search I find articles blaming both sides but suggesting that the bulk of human rights violations are on the Russian-backed separatist side. And that the armed conflict was largely instigated by Russia. So it is an ugly little war that Russia appears largely to blame for apparently.

[Dan Z]

Of note is that nearly all wars have no “good guy”. America relies a lot on myths that we are the good guys in our wars (Revolutionary War, for example, or the Union in the Civil War). Of course, both sides actually were pretty bad guys on both those conflicts.

This is a good point Josh - war is an ugly occupation all around.

To add to Ken's response, I would add is that it is important to recognize that the cause of some wars are often asymmetrical - and thus immorality is not equally distributed. Sometimes an aggressor starts a war (with its death and destruction) where none would have existed otherwise. Ukraine and Iraq are both examples of such asymmetrical action. It doesn't seem right to declare moral equivalency when one country wantonly and without existential cause invades another. The Ukrainian government and people may not be blameless, but they are certainly being victimized by Russian expansionist aggression.

[Ken]

I don't necessarily disagree, but does being the aggressor imply ethical inferiority? What standard of ethics condemns a nation for being proactive, or expansionist?

Oh there are standards:

In the judgment of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, which followed World War II:

• "War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

The United Nations has determined that wars of aggression or conquest (without the justification of self defense) are considered to be violations of international law under Article 39 of the UN charter to which Russia (or the USSR) was a signatory.