Telegram as a vehicle for war propaganda

[nett]

I already watched that video, Maybe you don't actually read my comments, but I linked to it in a previous comment.

I'm asking if you feel that this video means that all of the reports of violence against people in the Donbas are fake.

No, I do not believe that. And I do think the Azov Battalion is a serious problem.

I do, however, believe that there has been violence from both sides in the Donbas, that there are Nazi-linked extremist groups on both sides. And also in Russia. For instance, the Russian Orthodox Army is strongly associated with the neo-Nazi paramilitary organization Russian National Unity led by Alexander Barkashov. Its leader Dmitri Boitsov is said to have been taken orders directly from Barkashov.

And let's face it, there are Nazis and neo-Nazis in the United States, too. Some of them have showed up, carrying weapons, in public events in the United States. Think Charlottesville. But not just Charlottesville - remember the Nazi flag and Camp Auschwitz T-shirt at January 6th? And some of these neo-Nazis are in American police forces and military units.

On balance, I think this statement from the Jewish News Syndicate is probably accurate:

We strongly reject the Russian government’s cynical abuse of the term genocide, the memory of World War II and the Holocaust, and the equation of the Ukrainian state with the Nazi regime to justify its unprovoked aggression. This rhetoric is factually wrong, morally repugnant and deeply offensive to the memory of millions of victims of Nazism and those who courageously fought against it, including Russian and Ukrainian soldiers of the Red Army.

We do not idealize the Ukrainian state and society. Like any other country, it has right-wing extremists and violent xenophobic groups. Ukraine also ought to better confront the darker chapters of its painful and complicated history. Yet none of this justifies the Russian aggression and the gross mischaracterization of Ukraine. At this fateful moment we stand united with free, independent and democratic Ukraine and strongly reject the Russian government’s misuse of the history of World War II to justify its own violence.

As for the claims that Ukraine is trying to wipe out the Russian language and Russian speakers ... the President of Ukraine is a proud Russian speaker who switches between Ukranian and Russian in his speeches, addressing all Ukranians, but also the mothers of Russian soldiers and Russian soldiers themselves. He is also Jewish. Zelenskyy is no Nazi, and he is not trying to wipe out the Russian language, which he speaks with his family.

And Article 10 of the Ukranian Constitution guarantees the free development, use, and protection of Russian:

Article 10

The state language of Ukraine is the Ukrainian language.

The State ensures the comprehensive development and functioning of the Ukrainian language in all spheres of social life throughout the entire territory of Ukraine.

In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed.

The State promotes the learning of languages of international communication.

The use of languages in Ukraine is guaranteed by the Constitution of Ukraine and is determined by law.

If you look at what has happened in the war, the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine haven't exactly welcomed the Russian military with open arms. They apparently did not feel they needed Putin to liberate them.

I don't understand what your moral compass for war consists of. We've established that the US does much worse to countries who are not on their border, and pose much less threat. You don't seem to care nearly as much about that. The civilian casualties in the Ukraine pale in comparison what the US has wreaked on multiple countries.

The Ukraine can't "beat" Russia in a conventional war, but you keep bringing up their right to sovereignty etc, while talking about how horrible all the deaths are. Which is more important in your mind? At what point should Zelenskyy throw in the towel, as Bennet told him to, if he actually cares about Ukrainians? Would it better for all Ukrainians to die fighting Russia?

To me, all the moral outrage very much feels like "we've always been at war with Eurasia".

[Bootstrap]

I don't understand what your moral compass for war consists of.

Here's one true North: don't invade countries that are no threat to you.

We've established that the US does much worse to countries who are not on their border, and pose much less threat. You don't seem to care nearly as much about that.

I don't? I was rather loud about this when we invaded Iraq. I have been pretty loud about our war crimes. But not when people are trying to imply that means that we shouldn't notice what Russia is doing now.

So what is your moral compass for war? And how does that apply to Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

[nett]

I don't understand what your moral compass for war consists of.

Here's one true North: don't invade countries that are no threat to you.

I think your compass might have a big USA shaped magnet sitting right next to it. You have no authority to state as fact that The Ukraine is no threat Russia.

In February, Zelenksy was saber-rattling about "reconsidering" the Budapest Memorandum making Ukraine a non-nuclear nation if his "security" demands were not met. What he meant by security demands amounted to military guarantees from the West and the EU. The threat of nuclear armament alone is very serious to Russia, and Russia is also very threatened by the idea of Western or EU military installations in the Ukraine. Russia has been very clear on this.

The US would never allow Mexico to arm itself it with nukes, or even threaten it, and the US would never allow Russian or China to move significant military installations there, and give Mexico "security guarentees"

The Ukraine not being a threat to Russia is the opinion of the hypocritical west. I'm aware that you align politically with that viewpoint, but that's not my "true north"

We've established that the US does much worse to countries who are not on their border, and pose much less threat. You don't seem to care nearly as much about that.

I don't? I was rather loud about this when we invaded Iraq. I have been pretty loud about our war crimes. But not when people are trying to imply that means that we shouldn't notice what Russia is doing now.

So what is your moral compass for war? And how does that apply to Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

I don't have a moral compass for war. I don't believe in just war, and God doesn't ask Christians to fight in wars, so it's out of my hands. God causes nations to rise and fall. It's His business, not mine.

As an American citizen, the last thing I want to do is stand on a high-horse about war crimes. I'm ashamed of this country, and the whole west to be honest.

On a human level, the western response to The Ukraine has been gutless. It consisted of throwing gasoline on the fire of this whole situation, and then standing on the sidelines wishing Ukraine our best, and virtue signaling about how mean Putin is while the Ukraine get pummeled. The Ukrainians (and most people) have been fed a steady supply of hopium that "Russia is losing", "The Ukraine is turning out to be much tougher than they thought", "The convoy is stuck", "the Ghost of Kyiv shot down x number of Russian jets", "the Ukrainian Reaper has killed 20 Russians in combat", The Snake Island nonsense and on and on and on.

The truth is, the Ukrainian military was disabled within the first few days. They are now decentralized, and without much command and control. Reports from American who volunteered to help fight with Ukrainians is that they are essentially being used as cannon fodder, and there is not strategy, just desperation.

To continue telling Ukrainians that they're winning is false hope, and it's cruel. Naftali Bennet told Zelensky as much. Will he do the right thing for The Ukraine?

[Bootstrap]

I don't have a moral compass for war. I don't believe in just war, and God doesn't ask Christians to fight in wars, so it's out of my hands. God causes nations to rise and fall. It's His business, not mine.

First off, this thread really is about fact checking claims from sources like Telegram. And I would like to keep it that way. So in that context ...

We agree on the above. But here's what I don't understand: if you believe that, why do you promote claims made by warmongers without doing careful fact checking first? Why do you use their talking points? That seems inconsistent.

I don't have any particular advice for the nations of the world on how to handle this. I don't see great answers except for prayer and caring for the refugees. But having a clear eye on the facts matters here when the invading army is flooding the zone with disinformation meant to keep us from having compassion for the victims and to justify the invasion.

[GaryK]

I don't have any particular advice for the nations of the world on how to handle this. I don't see great answers except for prayer and caring for the refugees.

And yet you've been going on and on about how bad Russia is in this war and how morality says you shouldn't invade other countries, as though the KOG perspective is taking a side in this political war. These types of wars have been going on since nearly the beginning of time.

Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." Both Russia and Ukraine are fighting in this war and Jesus says His Kingdom doesn't fight like this. Once we have become a part of His Kingdom, we are called to love our enemies and to do good to those who hate us. Neither side in this war is doing that, for one simple reason...politics and Jesus' Kingdom are completely at odds with each other.

I suppose this makes me a Russian propagandist now as well...

[Bootstrap]

I suppose this makes me a Russian propagandist now as well...

No, I haven't seen you promoting Russian propaganda. In this post, at least, you seem to be encouraging us to stay aloof. But here's the first thing I said in the post you quoted from:

First off, this thread really is about fact checking claims from sources like Telegram. And I would like to keep it that way. So in that context ...

Are you saying that Christians should not offer opinions on these questions at all? If they do, do you agree that fact-checking is important and we should be suspicious of unverified information form sources like Telegram?

I'll respond to other things you said in a more appropriate thread. But I think the topic of this thread is important. And it's interesting that it's getting so much pushback.

[GaryK]

I suppose this makes me a Russian propagandist now as well...

No, I haven't seen you promoting Russian propaganda. In this post, at least, you seem to be encouraging us to stay aloof. But here's the first thing I said in the post you quoted from:

First off, this thread really is about fact checking claims from sources like Telegram. And I would like to keep it that way. So in that context ...

Are you saying that Christians should not offer opinions on these questions at all? If they do, do you agree that fact-checking is important and we should be suspicious of unverified information form sources like Telegram?

I'll respond to other things you said in a more appropriate thread. But I think the topic of this thread is important. And it's interesting that it's getting so much pushback.

I was responding to this claim, which you wrote in this thread.

I don't have any particular advice for the nations of the world on how to handle this. I don't see great answers except for prayer and caring for the refugees.

I actually agree with this. Are you planning to stop opining about who's the bad guy in this situation, even in other threads? You certainly seem to want others to stop opining on things that disagree with your perspective on this. That sounds like politics to me.

[nett]

I don't have a moral compass for war. I don't believe in just war, and God doesn't ask Christians to fight in wars, so it's out of my hands. God causes nations to rise and fall. It's His business, not mine.

First off, this thread really is about fact checking claims from sources like Telegram. And I would like to keep it that way. So in that context ...

We agree on the above. But here's what I don't understand: if you believe that, why do you promote claims made by warmongers without doing careful fact checking first? Why do you use their talking points? That seems inconsistent.

What claims have I made here that turned out to be false?

I don't have any particular advice for the nations of the world on how to handle this. I don't see great answers except for prayer and caring for the refugees. But having a clear eye on the facts matters here when the invading army is flooding the zone with disinformation meant to keep us from having compassion for the victims and to justify the invasion.

That seem at odds with your true north statement. I'm not aligned with Russia, but when a few are you hysterically shrieking like this. I think it's important to point out the other side of the argument, lest the silent lurkers here be swayed by the intense partisanship, and might be even be tempted to take up arms.

The most "peaceful" option here is clearly for Ukraine to surrender, as Naftali Bennett advised. Do you agree with him?

[temporal1]

I don't have any particular advice for the nations of the world on how to handle this. I don't see great answers except for prayer and caring for the refugees.

And yet you've been going on and on about how bad Russia is in this war and how morality says you shouldn't invade other countries, as though the KOG perspective is taking a side in this political war. These types of wars have been going on since nearly the beginning of time.

Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." Both Russia and Ukraine are fighting in this war and Jesus says His Kingdom doesn't fight like this.

Once we have become a part of His Kingdom, we are called to love our enemies and to do good to those who hate us.

Neither side in this war is doing that, for one simple reason...politics and Jesus' Kingdom are completely at odds with each other.

I suppose this makes me a Russian propagandist now as well...

thank you, GaryK. this is not a popular passage at this time in history.

i can’t say i’m succeeding at loving enemies. but, i know His instructions. in my heart, i know.
accepting Jesus is the first step. then come submission, obedience. sometimes, each step is mighty difficult on its own.
it’s not like they come as a “package deal.” obedience is the critical mass.

Matthew 5:46 is a really HARD one.

do you arm your friends? honest question.

me never... but in military strategy you want allies that are strong enough to help you, but not strong enough to defeat you. The best gear you keep for yourself and share the next best. Your enemy, well we have done this many times funding future terrorists to counter the Russians.

Sun tzu wrote an entire book on military strategy full of these pithy sayings but not this specific one.

i only know a little about Sun tzu’s The Art of War. It’s fascinating, its place in history is remarkable.
Ancient China 5th Century BC. The epitome of human reasoning??

Along came Jesus, who turned everything upside-down with His pithy sayings. Not by mistake. i know you know.
Matthew 5:44
https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-44.htm

Love Your Enemies
…43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’

44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.
He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.…

A REALLY hard one:
Matthew 5:46
https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-46.htm

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Do not even tax collectors do the same?

47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others?
Do not even Gentiles do the same?…

i’m not sure contemporary dumpster-fires rate sophisticated Sun Tzu. But, clumsily, they go “in that direction.”

[temporal1]

nett:
The most "peaceful" option here is clearly for Ukraine to surrender, as Naftali Bennett advised. Do you agree with him?

If i understand, Ukraine does not have to surrender, per se.
Putin is proposing an agreement (reported as “demands” but i’m not sure of the translation). i’m praying-intensely the talks will bring resolution.

Would it be bad for Ukraine to be neutral??

The stickiest wicket is probably how Ukraine can (do anything) while saving face for the ultra-warring west, which is 100% geared-up to annihilate Putin/Russia. Old saying, “She’s all dressed-up, with nowhere to go.” (maybe it takes a young girl’s heart to understand?)

How to get the west to back down is no small matter. They are all dressed up and definitely plan to go.
In the least, they plan for Ukrainians “to go.”

It’s a big problem. Not too big for God.

- - - - - - -

That word, “annihilate.” i don’t believe this is of Jesus Christ.

2020 / “Winning versus Annihilation”
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