Telegram as a vehicle for war propaganda

[Bootstrap]

Take caution when you read such sources and find yourself hating Russians, hating Russia, and feeling like it’s a good idea to go to war to “fight back”.

Thing is, I really don't feel that way. I don't have any idea how That Other Kingdom should respond to this - there are dangers to appeasement, there are dangers to any line of action. But I do think it's important to verify facts before spreading claims, precisely to avoid justifying warfare and hatred.

I am half German. My mother's family was part of a large German community, and they were very much against Hitler. That did not make them anti-German. Many Russians oppose what Putin is doing. That does not make them hateful or anti-Russian. You speak as though the only two options are to justify Putin's atrocities or to hate Russians. Neither of those options is OK. Not even close.

As I said in another thread:

Let me try to look at this from a Kingdom of God perspective.

It's clear which country attacked. Russia did. It's clear where the victims of this war live. Ukraine. Grieving, praying, seeking to help refugees and those who are in danger, hungering and thirsting for righteousness - these seem like good Kingdom of God things. In the way we discuss this, are we doing that or are we making that really, really hard to do?

Trying to promote the narratives of the invading military force does not seem like a good Kingdom of God approach. Playing the same old culture war games with the latest topic does not seem like a good Kingdom of God approach.

In the fog of war, I think we need that clarity.

Really, if you want to know what the facts are, don't turn to Telegram channels unless you are very skilled at sorting out massive amounts of true and false claims, many of which are quite simply war propaganda. If you have the time to do that, go take Bellingcat's training and volunteer. Many of their volunteers specialize - one is particularly good at geolocation and identifying places using Google Street Maps to see if the photo really was taken in a given area, another is good at identifying weapons given even a blurry photo that shows part of the weapon, another is good at forensic pathology ... they are building a huge network with the skills to sort through the fog.

For many of these claims, you don't need that level of skill. I simply don't have the time to spend on this, I once spent hours and hours doing this kind of thing, I want to direct my attention in other directions, like helping refugees and doing my actual job. But if you think this is your calling, by all means, go get the training, become part of a community that actually knows how to do this.

[Josh]

Your "community that actually knows how to do this" is just one that repeats propaganda for the most powerful regime on earth, the West.

It is amazing your lack of insight to see this. It should be obvious that the most powerful empire will have the best propaganda. What baffles me is that you seem 100% on board with propaganda, provided it's from the biggest, strongest empire the world has ever seen.

[Bootstrap]

Your "community that actually knows how to do this" is just one that repeats propaganda for the most powerful regime on earth, the West.

It is amazing your lack of insight to see this.

Sorry, Josh, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. Arrogance is not the same as understanding. Take the time to look at the tools and the level of evidence they provide, spend some time watching how the community sorts these things out, look at the level of evidence they provide for these claims - evidence that you can verify for yourself.

You might notice, for instance, how they provide evidence of war crimes on both sides of conflicts like Syria, how they poke holes in propaganda from all sides.

Learning how to do this will take real time. A lot more time than making arrogant claims on an Internet forum. But if you want to start learning how to verify this kind of information, it simply does take time. If you don't want to, please be aware that Telegram contains a whole lot of raw propaganda, you simply can't trust it without doing this kind of verification.

[Bootstrap]

You continue to refuse to acknowledge what has been done to Donetsk and Luhansk civilians by the Ukrainian commandos. Until you do, all of your moral posturing rings hollow.

In another thread, I addressed the moral question. Here, I would like to address the truth question. I don't think the Russian narrative holds up. If these claims were falsified, wouldn't you agree that's a serious problem? Falsifying atrocities in order to justify invading a neighboring country?

Here is one relevant starting points on Bellingcat. And please do check out all the links and the level of evidence provided, the different claims that were evaluated, etc. Much of this is about false claims circulated on Telegram.

Warning: this is quite gruesome.

‘Exploiting Cadavers ’and ‘Faked IEDs’: Experts Debunk Staged Pre-War ‘Provocation’ in the Donbas

“One would thus conclude that this is another case of exploiting human cadavers in order to fraudulently engineer a ‘crime scene’, with obvious implications for the swaying of public opinion and thus justification for the military action that is currently underway.”

Dr Owens’ conclusion that both visible bodies were already deceased before being placed in Vehicle 1 was consistent with those of another forensic pathologist Bellingcat spoke to but who wished to remain anonymous.

At Bellingcat we have been keeping track of some of the disinformation used by the Russian state and its proxies to justify its war against Ukraine. However, no other event has gone quite so far as this one, namely using bodies to try and fake an IED attack. This is a bitter irony considering the Russian state has levelled this very same accusation, with absolutely no evidence, at Syrian victims of chemical attacks.

[nett]

You continue to refuse to acknowledge what has been done to Donetsk and Luhansk civilians by the Ukrainian commandos. Until you do, all of your moral posturing rings hollow.

In another thread, I addressed the moral question. Here, I would like to address the truth question. I don't think the Russian narrative holds up. If these claims were falsified, wouldn't you agree that's a serious problem? Falsifying atrocities in order to justify invading a neighboring country?

Here is one relevant starting points on Bellingcat. And please do check out all the links and the level of evidence provided, the different claims that were evaluated, etc. Much of this is about false claims circulated on Telegram.

Warning: this is quite gruesome.

‘Exploiting Cadavers ’and ‘Faked IEDs’: Experts Debunk Staged Pre-War ‘Provocation’ in the Donbas

“One would thus conclude that this is another case of exploiting human cadavers in order to fraudulently engineer a ‘crime scene’, with obvious implications for the swaying of public opinion and thus justification for the military action that is currently underway.”

Dr Owens’ conclusion that both visible bodies were already deceased before being placed in Vehicle 1 was consistent with those of another forensic pathologist Bellingcat spoke to but who wished to remain anonymous.

At Bellingcat we have been keeping track of some of the disinformation used by the Russian state and its proxies to justify its war against Ukraine. However, no other event has gone quite so far as this one, namely using bodies to try and fake an IED attack. This is a bitter irony considering the Russian state has levelled this very same accusation, with absolutely no evidence, at Syrian victims of chemical attacks.

So you're saying based on this, that neither Ukraine nor the Asov have targeted civilians in the Donbas, or have committed atrocities?

[Bootstrap]

So you're saying based on this, that neither Ukraine nor the Asov have targeted civilians in the Donbas, or have committed atrocities?

Did you watch the video? Can you please summarize the video and what it says? Please don't just bat it away, let's actually discuss it. Or not. But let's not play games. Respond to something specific in the video or the article, make it clear that you took the time to read it and watch the video.

I mean, you responded 4 minutes after I posted. Are you even trying to process anything?

[Josh]

So you're saying based on this, that neither Ukraine nor the Asov have targeted civilians in the Donbas, or have committed atrocities?

Did you watch the video? Can you please summarize the video and what it says? Please don't just bat it away, let's actually discuss it. Or not. But let's not play games. Respond to something specific in the video or the article, make it clear that you took the time to read it and watch the video.

I mean, you responded 4 minutes after I posted. Are you even trying to process anything?

I don’t watch propaganda videos, but Azov’s atrocities have been well documented in mainstream news sources for about a decade. It’s baffling to me how you remain in denial of this.

And as I said earlier, your embrace of The Empire is even more baffling.

[Bootstrap]

I don’t watch propaganda videos, but Azov’s atrocities have been well documented in mainstream news sources for about a decade. It’s baffling to me how you remain in denial of this.

And as I said earlier, your embrace of The Empire is even more baffling.

Let me point out the technique you are using: you are responding to a claim I did not make as though I did, with a whole lot of emotion.

I will discuss what the video says about specific claims that were made to justify the attack. Claims that are clearly false. If you watch the video, you can follow the evidence on your own to confirm what they did if you want to take the time to do so.

Falsifying atrocities about Luhansk and Donetsk in order to justify invading your neighbor. Is that good or bad? What does that say about the trustworthiness of channels that promote these claims? Can you see why I do not instantly assume that everything you claim is true? Can you see why I do not trust Telegram channels without real verification?

What are you doing to avoid promoting claims before verifying them, Josh? Assuming wartime propaganda exists, what steps are you taking to make sure you are not acting as Putin's "useful idiot"?

[nett]

So you're saying based on this, that neither Ukraine nor the Asov have targeted civilians in the Donbas, or have committed atrocities?

Did you watch the video? Can you please summarize the video and what it says? Please don't just bat it away, let's actually discuss it. Or not. But let's not play games. Respond to something specific in the video or the article, make it clear that you took the time to read it and watch the video.

I mean, you responded 4 minutes after I posted. Are you even trying to process anything?

I already watched that video, Maybe you don't actually read my comments, but I linked to it in a previous comment.

I'm asking if you feel that this video means that all of the reports of violence against people in the Donbas are fake.

[Bootstrap]

I already watched that video, Maybe you don't actually read my comments, but I linked to it in a previous comment.

I'm asking if you feel that this video means that all of the reports of violence against people in the Donbas are fake.

No, I do not believe that. And I do think the Azov Battalion is a serious problem.

I do, however, believe that there has been violence from both sides in the Donbas, that there are Nazi-linked extremist groups on both sides. And also in Russia. For instance, the Russian Orthodox Army is strongly associated with the neo-Nazi paramilitary organization Russian National Unity led by Alexander Barkashov. Its leader Dmitri Boitsov is said to have been taken orders directly from Barkashov.

And let's face it, there are Nazis and neo-Nazis in the United States, too. Some of them have showed up, carrying weapons, in public events in the United States. Think Charlottesville. But not just Charlottesville - remember the Nazi flag and Camp Auschwitz T-shirt at January 6th? And some of these neo-Nazis are in American police forces and military units.

On balance, I think this statement from the Jewish News Syndicate is probably accurate:

We strongly reject the Russian government’s cynical abuse of the term genocide, the memory of World War II and the Holocaust, and the equation of the Ukrainian state with the Nazi regime to justify its unprovoked aggression. This rhetoric is factually wrong, morally repugnant and deeply offensive to the memory of millions of victims of Nazism and those who courageously fought against it, including Russian and Ukrainian soldiers of the Red Army.

We do not idealize the Ukrainian state and society. Like any other country, it has right-wing extremists and violent xenophobic groups. Ukraine also ought to better confront the darker chapters of its painful and complicated history. Yet none of this justifies the Russian aggression and the gross mischaracterization of Ukraine. At this fateful moment we stand united with free, independent and democratic Ukraine and strongly reject the Russian government’s misuse of the history of World War II to justify its own violence.

As for the claims that Ukraine is trying to wipe out the Russian language and Russian speakers ... the President of Ukraine is a proud Russian speaker who switches between Ukranian and Russian in his speeches, addressing all Ukranians, but also the mothers of Russian soldiers and Russian soldiers themselves. He is also Jewish. Zelenskyy is no Nazi, and he is not trying to wipe out the Russian language, which he speaks with his family.

And Article 10 of the Ukranian Constitution guarantees the free development, use, and protection of Russian:

Article 10

The state language of Ukraine is the Ukrainian language.

The State ensures the comprehensive development and functioning of the Ukrainian language in all spheres of social life throughout the entire territory of Ukraine.

In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed.

The State promotes the learning of languages of international communication.

The use of languages in Ukraine is guaranteed by the Constitution of Ukraine and is determined by law.

If you look at what has happened in the war, the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine haven't exactly welcomed the Russian military with open arms. They apparently did not feel they needed Putin to liberate them.