Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

[joey_the_ox]

I would also suggest that Jesus was probably talking about people who stood on the steps of the synagogues praying loudly for the public to see, and not actual prayers that are part of a religious service within the synagogue on the sabbath.

But you just said the synagogue was a public place. ("In biblical Israel, synagogues were probably considered public spaces as it was a theocratic society, especially during Old Testament days.")

[temporal1]

Removing prayer from public schools was a bad thing.
The authors of the First Amendment absolutely never intended for such a thing either.

The type of people who don't want prayer in public schools are atheists, communists, and other people who have no place in a decent society. As I said earlier, you'd feel at home in the USSR. Prayer in school was banned there too.

Social engineering EXPERIMENTS should be labeled as such, given time to play out, to determine fruits before enshrining in human law.

i’ve read, Vashti McCollum changed her mind regarding God before she died (a quick google search did not bring results) as i would now expect from google. my older brother was friends with her sons, the family was known in my house. my parents did not ban her boys, but, for me, younger, i was forbidden to talk or listen to them about religion. one of her boys, not having sisters, was kind to me. i was younger, and a girl, thus, i had very little interaction with them. i believe they were an overall good family. the boys are still living.

Today, instead of having “questionable” passages from scriptures offered to students for writing practice, etc., students cut their teeth on “solid truth” (cough) offered up by humanists, Marxists, Communists, or other. Any other, than Jesus Christ.

i agree, freedom from religion was NOT a founding goal. A founding goal was to prevent Christians from killing one another.
they weren’t much concerned beyond Christianity, Christianity was the hot topic of those early days. particularly, Catholics versus Protestants. U.S. founders didn’t want to bring those bloody wars to fledgling U.S.

only in recent decades have self-serving others appropriated legal language to benefit themselves, whether atheists, Muslims, satanists, etc. they’ve been to U.S. law schools, they’re good at twisting legal language to leverage their special interests.

[Ken]

I would also suggest that Jesus was probably talking about people who stood on the steps of the synagogues praying loudly for the public to see, and not actual prayers that are part of a religious service within the synagogue on the sabbath.

But you just said the synagogue was a public place. ("In biblical Israel, synagogues were probably considered public spaces as it was a theocratic society, especially during Old Testament days.")

We are going around in circles. What do YOU think Jesus meant in Matthew 5 and do you think publicly lead government run prayers over the intercom in a public school is what he was talking about or not?

There are two separate questions. First, whether government-run prayer is legal. And second, whether it is biblical.

[ken_sylvania]

I would also suggest that Jesus was probably talking about people who stood on the steps of the synagogues praying loudly for the public to see, and not actual prayers that are part of a religious service within the synagogue on the sabbath.

But you just said the synagogue was a public place. ("In biblical Israel, synagogues were probably considered public spaces as it was a theocratic society, especially during Old Testament days.")

We are going around in circles. What do YOU think Jesus meant in Matthew 5 and do you think publicly lead government run prayers over the intercom in a public school is what he was talking about or not?

There are two separate questions. First, whether government-run prayer is legal. And second, whether it is biblical.

What do I think Jesus meant in Matthew 5? Not an all inclusive list, but:
1. The blessing of God is upon the humble, meek, merciful, peaceable and pure who are seeking after God.
2. The effect of true belief in Jesus is a noticeable change in ones life so that people around will notice. It will permeate every aspect of life.
3. Righteousness is in obeying God's commands from the heart, not finding workarounds or excuses. It's just as important to think right as it is to act right.
4. To promise with an oath is to set one's self up as being on a level with God. Therefore oaths are forbidden to Jesus' followers.
5. Children of God ought to be making peace by being willing to go above and beyond what is required, and by loving their enemies.

I have no idea what government-run prayers are. I do think it should be legal for a government employee to lead his workforce, or students, etc. in prayer to God.

Such a prayer may not be legal. Such a prayer should be legal. I believe such a prayer could be Biblical.

[RZehr]

[
Where I would disagree with you is that this is more than just "mouthing pieties". Teachers set the tone in a classroom and students follow their lead. A teacher who refuses to acknowledge the sexuality of an LGBT child is inviting other children to follow their lead and do so in much more cruel ways. You are inviting teachers to make their classroom into an unsafe and unwelcome place for specific students. I think that is wrong.

And I would be equally concerned that the teacher is using that influence to perpetuate evil by pushing this agenda upon students and society. It is, as you say, inviting teachers to make the classroom into an unsafe and unwelcome place for specific Christian students. Who will be subject to other students following their lead and cruelly ostracize Christian students for their beliefs.

It seems like you're moving towards an unavoidable logical conclusion that Christians with convictions about these things cannot work in these public institutions.

If the public institution's goal is to harm children, it's kind of hard for a teacher to "do their job"

Pretty much. There are very many occupations that Christians both in the past and present, voluntarily keep ourselves from doing. Teaching in public schools may very well become one of those jobs we can't do in the future.

[Ken]

I have no idea what government-run prayers are. I do think it should be legal for a government employee to lead his workforce, or students, etc. in prayer to God.

Such a prayer may not be legal. Such a prayer should be legal. I believe such a prayer could be Biblical.

Prior to Engel, many states had mandatory school prayers at the start of the school day coinciding with the pledge of allegiance. Students were required to recite the official prayer written by the state legislature or state board of education. That is mandatory government-run prayer. Students would be disciplined if they did not comply.

In earlier times in the last 19th century, legislatures and boards of education were dominated by protestants who would include readings from the Protestant Bible and prayers from Protestant prayer books in an overt effort to peel off Catholic children and convert them. This effort to promote Protestant faiths in public schools (turn them into Protestant schools) is actually what lead Catholics across the nation to develop their own system of Catholic parochial schools.

Students and teachers are still perfectly able to pray and even have group prayers in school. It simply cannot be school-led or part of any organized school activity such as during an actual class. At the school where I currently teach there are evangelical students who hold prayer meetings during lunch on campus. That is all perfectly fine.

When I worked in Texas there were constant teacher prayer groups and Bible study groups meeting in the school before and after school or at lunch. I got endless staff email invitations and announcements about these sorts of things. It just couldn't be obligatory or part of any official school function like classes, assemblies or faculty meetings.

[ken_sylvania]

I have no idea what government-run prayers are. I do think it should be legal for a government employee to lead his workforce, or students, etc. in prayer to God.

Such a prayer may not be legal. Such a prayer should be legal. I believe such a prayer could be Biblical.

Prior to Engel, many states had mandatory school prayers at the start of the school day coinciding with the pledge of allegiance. Students were required to recite the official prayer written by the state legislature or state board of education. That is mandatory government-run prayer. Students would be disciplined if they did not comply.

Is that what Engel v. Vitale was about?
How many states is "many states"?

[Ken]

I have no idea what government-run prayers are. I do think it should be legal for a government employee to lead his workforce, or students, etc. in prayer to God.

Such a prayer may not be legal. Such a prayer should be legal. I believe such a prayer could be Biblical.

Prior to Engel, many states had mandatory school prayers at the start of the school day coinciding with the pledge of allegiance. Students were required to recite the official prayer written by the state legislature or state board of education. That is mandatory government-run prayer. Students would be disciplined if they did not comply.

Is that what Engel v. Vitale was about?
How many states is "many states"?

Steven Engel was a Jewish father in New York who brought suit against the state of New York on behalf of a bunch of other Jewish families who claimed that the state-required daily (Christian) school prayer (and having their children forced by the government to recite Christian prayers) violated their religious freedom under the First Amendment. The Supreme Court agreed that it was an unconstitutional violation of their religious freedom to have Christian prayers forced onto their Jewish children in school and struck down mandatory school prayer and school-led prayers. They didn't strike down prayer in schools, anyone can still pray in schools on their own. They only struck down the official school-led prayers. There have been a bunch of subsequent cases that have refined and clarified this position.

I don't know the breakdown of how the various school prayer laws existed in the various states prior to Engle. It is actually kind of hard to research that topic. I believe a majority of states actually had mandatory school prayer written into state law while most other states simply allowed it and some had recommended official prayers but it was up to local school districts and schools to actually require prayer, which many if not most did anyway notwithstanding any state requirement. In some states there was an official state prayer. In others I think local schools and officials had flexibility and some did other things like read Bible verses and such as well as prayer.

It is kind of a distinction without a difference if you lived in a state with mandatory school prayer written into state law, or a state which merely allowed it and the local school district or school made it mandatory. It amounts to exactly the same thing for students and families.

[temporal1]

And I would be equally concerned that the teacher is using that influence to perpetuate evil by pushing this agenda upon students and society. It is, as you say, inviting teachers to make the classroom into an unsafe and unwelcome place for specific Christian students.

Who will be subject to other students following their lead and cruelly ostracize Christian students for their beliefs.

It seems like you're moving towards an unavoidable logical conclusion that Christians with convictions about these things cannot work in these public institutions.

If the public institution's goal is to harm children, it's kind of hard for a teacher to "do their job"

Pretty much. There are very many occupations that Christians both in the past and present, voluntarily keep ourselves from doing. Teaching in public schools may very well become one of those jobs we can't do in the future.

In this discussion, Ken is telling them to, by all means, leave.

It’s a form of bullying.
Not unlike what is happening in the Methodist church. Bullies appropriate what others have built, then tell them to move on.
It’s happened so frequently, they feel fully entitled. With no moral compass, no bottom to the pit.

Christians make easy targets.

Not-so-United Methodists / Politics
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1754&start=70

[ken_sylvania]

Prior to Engel, many states had mandatory school prayers at the start of the school day coinciding with the pledge of allegiance. Students were required to recite the official prayer written by the state legislature or state board of education. That is mandatory government-run prayer. Students would be disciplined if they did not comply.

Is that what Engel v. Vitale was about?
How many states is "many states"?

Steven Engel was a Jewish father in New York who brought suit against the state of New York on behalf of a bunch of other Jewish families who claimed that the state-required daily (Christian) school prayer (and having their children forced by the government to recite Christian prayers) violated their religious freedom under the First Amendment. The Supreme Court agreed that it was an unconstitutional violation of their religious freedom to have Christian prayers forced onto their Jewish children in school and struck down mandatory school prayer and school-led prayers. They didn't strike down prayer in schools, anyone can still pray in schools on their own. They only struck down the official school-led prayers. There have been a bunch of subsequent cases that have refined and clarified this position.

I don't know the breakdown of how the various school prayer laws existed in the various states prior to Engle. It is actually kind of hard to research that topic. I believe a majority of states actually had mandatory school prayer written into state law while most other states simply allowed it and some had recommended official prayers but it was up to local school districts and schools to actually require prayer, which many if not most did anyway notwithstanding any state requirement. In some states there was an official state prayer. In others I think local schools and officials had flexibility and some did other things like read Bible verses and such as well as prayer.

It is kind of a distinction without a difference if you lived in a state with mandatory school prayer written into state law, or a state which merely allowed it and the local school district or school made it mandatory. It amounts to exactly the same thing for students and families.

Engel v. Vitale was not about any kind of prayer required by the State of NY. The only way any kind of prayer in this case could be claimed to be "state-required" is if you call the local school board a state.

In the instant case, students were not forced to recite the prayer, and in fact could be excused from the room if requested by their parents.

It's my understanding that in 1962 only 13 states required prayer or Bible reading in public schools. That's far from a majority.