Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

[ken_sylvania]

It's not about what I believe. It is what the Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that the First Amendment actually means when it comes to religion and public schools. To cite just one of many examples, in 1962 in Engel v. Vitale they ruled 6-1 that teachers and schools could not lead organized prayer in public schools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale

This is actually a thread about the First Amendment.

Removing prayer from public schools was a bad thing. The authors of the First Amendment absolutely never intended for such a thing either.

The type of people who don't want prayer in public schools are atheists, communists, and other people who have no place in a decent society. As I said earlier, you'd feel at home in the USSR. Prayer in school was banned there too.

Where do you come up with such nonsense? Prayer was not removed or banned from public schools. I can pray any time I want in school as can any student or anyone else.

The only thing that was banned was government-led public prayers in school. Do you really want the government writing your prayers for you and mandating what they must include?

I'm surprised that you of anyone would be advocating government mandated and government-led public prayers in schools since that is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus and the scripture in Matthew 6:5. Do not be like the hypocrites is what Jesus said:

• “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

You're talking out of two sides of your mouth here. First you say teachers are banned from leading in public prayer, then you say anyone can pray in school any time they want to.

I think that it is a good practice for a Christian teacher to lead his/her class in prayer to the one true God. It is also a good practice for that same teacher to pray privately, daily, for his/her students.

[joey_the_ox]

I'm surprised that you of anyone would be advocating government mandated and government-led public prayers in schools since that is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus and the scripture in Matthew 6:5. Do not be like the hypocrites is what Jesus said:

• “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Do you interpret what Jesus said here as a universal ban on public prayer?

[Ken]

Removing prayer from public schools was a bad thing. The authors of the First Amendment absolutely never intended for such a thing either.

The type of people who don't want prayer in public schools are atheists, communists, and other people who have no place in a decent society. As I said earlier, you'd feel at home in the USSR. Prayer in school was banned there too.

Where do you come up with such nonsense? Prayer was not removed or banned from public schools. I can pray any time I want in school as can any student or anyone else.

The only thing that was banned was government-led public prayers in school. Do you really want the government writing your prayers for you and mandating what they must include?

I'm surprised that you of anyone would be advocating government mandated and government-led public prayers in schools since that is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus and the scripture in Matthew 6:5. Do not be like the hypocrites is what Jesus said:

• “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

You're talking out of two sides of your mouth here. First you say teachers are banned from leading in public prayer, then you say anyone can pray in school any time they want to.

I think that it is a good practice for a Christian teacher to lead his/her class in prayer to the one true God. It is also a good practice for that same teacher to pray privately, daily, for his/her students.

What do you see as inconsistent? Teachers and students are free to pray in silent or in private when at school. Or even out loud. There are no restrictions on any of that. In fact in Texas schools they start every morning with a minute of silence after the pledge of allegiance so that teachers and students and anyone who wants to can pray if they wish to. There is a specific time set aside for it. That is perfectly legal and fine.

The only thing that the Supreme Court banned is school-led or teacher-led public prayers in schools where teachers are leading students in public prayer.

[Ken]

I'm surprised that you of anyone would be advocating government mandated and government-led public prayers in schools since that is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus and the scripture in Matthew 6:5. Do not be like the hypocrites is what Jesus said:

• “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Do you interpret what Jesus said here as a universal ban on public prayer?

I wouldn't call it a universal ban. Just biblical guidance. I would interpret it to refer to PUBLIC spaces, not private spaces like churches or homes or anywhere else.

[joey_the_ox]

I wouldn't call it a universal ban. Just biblical guidance. I would interpret it to refer to PUBLIC spaces, not private spaces like churches or homes or anywhere else.

A church is a private space, unlike a synagogue?

[Josh]

The church has historically been part of the public sphere, not the private one.

[Ken]

The church has historically been part of the public sphere, not the private one.

In Matthew 5:6 I interpret Jesus to be talking about public spaces in which Christians and non-Christians are all mixing. As in marketplaces, and street corners. Not spaces like churches or homes where only Christians are gathered together to worship. In that sense a church is a private space in that it is intended for Christians and not a public street or marketplace or forum where the entire public congregates. Churches are also not generally public property except in unusual circumstances like Notre Dame in Paris.

Similarly a public school is open to all faiths and run on a secular basis paid for by the tax dollars of all citizens, so it is a public space. Whereas a private Christian school is not. Sure, a big university like say Notre Dame might be open to the public and but it is still a private university. Therefore public-led and required prayer on the campus of Notre Dame is perfectly acceptable. But it would not be legal to require students to attend and recite a public prayer at the University of Washington.

However, I'm not a theologian so I will allow that other interpretations may exist.

[joey_the_ox]

The church has historically been part of the public sphere, not the private one.

In Matthew 5:6 I interpret Jesus to be talking about public spaces in which Christians and non-Christians are all mixing. As in marketplaces, and street corners. Not spaces like churches or homes where only Christians are gathered together to worship.

You do realize that Jesus was speaking to a largely Jewish audience, and that he used the example of a synagogue, right?

[temporal1]

In “solid” PNW schools, my grdaughter got the message loud+clear, “NO MENTION” of the Bible or Jesus allowed.
Years have passed. Same message. Same (militant) message.

i’ll ask her if she prays privately at school. she will answer honestly.

[Ken]

I wouldn't call it a universal ban. Just biblical guidance. I would interpret it to refer to PUBLIC spaces, not private spaces like churches or homes or anywhere else.

A church is a private space, unlike a synagogue?

In biblical Israel, synagogues were probably considered public spaces as it was a theocratic society, especially during Old Testament days. Synagogues and the temple were funded by the state. The New Testament essentially marked the transition period away from an official state religion (Judaism) to a world in which the church and state were separate and Christianity existed separately from both Judaism and the official pagan religions of Rome. And that is the basis of Kingdom theology.

I would suggest that in biblical Israel, synagogues were considered public spaces. In modern America they are not.

I would also suggest that Jesus was probably talking about people who stood on the steps of the synagogues praying loudly for the public to see, and not actual prayers that are part of a religious service within the synagogue on the sabbath.