Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
nett
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:22 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Fellowship

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by nett »

Dan Z wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:11 pm
nett wrote:My overwhelming belief here, is that the WEF / NATO leadership strongly desires WWIII, but they have to drum enough hateful sentiment to make it publicly viable.
Really?!? :shock: Frankly, this seems darkly cynical to me, and I'm struggling to see how a 3rd World War would benefit anyone - especially NATO.
What leads you to this conclusion?
The events leading to American entry in WW2 and especially WW1 is pretty darkly cynical too.

Bootstrap, Ken and DanZ, you all seem to have a very boyscoutish view of America / the West. I can't reconcile that with reality.

Why do you just assume NATO would be anti-war?
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Soloist

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Soloist »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:03 pm
nett wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:54 am Was I missing something?
Where would I even start?

I have been behind the Iron Curtain before the Wall opened, I lived in Berlin when the Wall fell, I have talked to many, many people about their lives before and after. I have listened to many hours of Communist propaganda broadcast on television. Sure, they don't call themselves Communists today, but the former head of the KGB is running this game. How much do you know about the Second Czechen War?

I think you are broadcasting Russian propaganda. I think you have no idea what waters you are playing in. Surely you know, at some level, that you are working very hard to stop people from sympathizing with the victims of this war and portraying the military aggressor as a victim.
I think that this reality is becoming truer in the states as well. We have so many situations where opinions are silenced. There is not however, a generalized issue of people disappearing in the states. Russia still has suicide with two shots to the back of the head falling out of a window.

I do think that people are exaggerating the war crimes and distorting why a hospital becomes a war zone. With all this said, civilians in a war zone equal dead civilians. Doesn't matter the war or who is waging it.

City warfare is really bad... you have to go building by building, block by block and suffer substantial casualties. Assuming you look before you fire, they get the drop on you and take out 2 soldiers for ever 1 of theirs. Our military suffers from trigger control issues.
(real stories)
Scenario 1:
A patrol is going through a small Afghani city. Children often will line up to get candy from the soldiers. One boy came running up towards the lead Humvee "Target right* cracked the ear piece. The top mounted 50cal gunner rotated aimed and almost fired at the boy as he threw a pinecone or some small object at the Humvee. Would you have had that level of trigger control or would you have committed a war crime?

Scenario 2:
Front gate guard sees a small child wearing a backpack running through the barricades. A gunnery sergeant at a distance yells an order "Shoot her!" and repeats it. The guard doesn't do it, the gunnery sergeant pulls his rifle to fire and the girl blows up the gate and the guard that hesitates. He saw the glint of wires out of the backpack for a remote controlled explosion.

Scenario 3:
You come across some civilians and they wave friendly like and you walk by continuing on your patrol. A few minutes later the same civilians ambush you and kill two of your men before you can neutralize the threat.

Scenario 4: https://www.msf.org/kunduz-hospital-attack-depth
At least 42 people were killed, including 24 patients, 14 staff and 4 caretakers. Thirty-seven people were injured.

Our patients burned in their beds, our medical staff were decapitated or lost limbs. Others were shot from the air while they fled the burning building.

The attack from the air lasted for around one hour. The main hospital building came under precise and repeated airstrikes, while the surrounding buildings were left mostly untouched.

Throughout the airstrikes our teams desperately called military authorities to stop the attack.
The US military claimed they had received reports that the hospital building was holding active Taliban militia. Our staff reported no armed combatants or fighting in the compound prior to the airstrike.
This last scenario is exactly what the Russians would claim in a hospital bombing. Who is telling the truth? If you recall from ancient history and from Scriptures, there were certain area's considered sacred and to not kill within it. A church was considered sanctuary often and criminals would sometimes flee within a monastery or a church. Similarly, military (particularly untrained militia) will hide in hospitals, schools and churches to ambush the enemy. Has the convenient advantage of either being protected by the location from attack or being able to cry war crimes if you get attacked. As I said, propaganda is on both sides and our own military has paid off the media before to not release details of war crimes.

What I get from NATO myself is a careful walk trying to pretend they care while not doing too much to goad Russia into a major war.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

nett wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:55 pm
Dan Z wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:11 pm
nett wrote:My overwhelming belief here, is that the WEF / NATO leadership strongly desires WWIII, but they have to drum enough hateful sentiment to make it publicly viable.
Really?!? :shock: Frankly, this seems darkly cynical to me, and I'm struggling to see how a 3rd World War would benefit anyone - especially NATO.
What leads you to this conclusion?
The events leading to American entry in WW2 and especially WW1 is pretty darkly cynical too.

Bootstrap, Ken and DanZ, you all seem to have a very boyscoutish view of America / the West. I can't reconcile that with reality.

Why do you just assume NATO would be anti-war?
What events? Pearl Harbor? After Pearl Harbor Germany declared war on the US, not the other way around.

I am the one who said here that Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice, Powell, and their enablers should have been tried for war crimes for their aggressive war of choice in Iraq. Is that "boyscoutish?"

My consistent position here is that wars of aggression should fail if only as an object lesson to future leaders whether they be NATO as was the case in Iraq, Russia in the case of Ukraine, the Saudi's in the case of Yemen, etc. etc. It is a simple fact of human nature that those things you reward you get more of. Whether we are talking about raising children, supervising employees, or international affairs. Military aggression should never be rewarded.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Dan Z

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Dan Z »

nett wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:55 pm
Dan Z wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:11 pm
nett wrote:My overwhelming belief here, is that the WEF / NATO leadership strongly desires WWIII, but they have to drum enough hateful sentiment to make it publicly viable.
Really?!? :shock: Frankly, this seems darkly cynical to me, and I'm struggling to see how a 3rd World War would benefit anyone - especially NATO.
What leads you to this conclusion?
The events leading to American entry in WW2 and especially WW1 is pretty darkly cynical too.

Bootstrap, Ken and DanZ, you all seem to have a very boyscoutish view of America / the West. I can't reconcile that with reality.

Why do you just assume NATO would be anti-war?
Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.
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Soloist

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Soloist »

Dan Z wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:10 pm
Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.
Why would Russia be doing the same actions to bring about a world war? it seems like their own existence, safety and particularly their prosperity is severely hampered. Why is Russia the only country with an irrational leader? might it be that some in NATO's countries are also irrational and world war may be being plotted by irrational actors on both sides?
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RZehr

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by RZehr »

I don’t understand what the point of rushing hundreds of millions of dollars in weapons to Ukraine is, if everyone agrees that it is just a matter of time before Russia takes over the country anyway. If they are determined to stop Russia, the West might as well commit to WW3 and not mess around. Otherwise, let Russia win the war sooner than later.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:05 pm
Dan Z wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:10 pm
Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.
Why would Russia be doing the same actions to bring about a world war? it seems like their own existence, safety and particularly their prosperity is severely hampered. Why is Russia the only country with an irrational leader? might it be that some in NATO's countries are also irrational and world war may be being plotted by irrational actors on both sides?
For the past 20 years Russia has been using military action to claw back little bits of the former Russian empire and has been successful. In Georgia, in Crimea, in other places like Chechnya and Dagestan. And they have used Russian troops to prop up unpopular regimes in Belorussia and Kazakhstan and other bordering republics. All with very little pushback from the west or the rest of the world, and with very limited local opposition except for Chechnya.

I expect Russia thought they could pull off the same trick once again in Ukraine and completely miscalculated for a variety of reasons. They miscalculated their own military superiority and the competence of the Ukrainian military. They miscalculated public opinion within Ukraine. And they miscalculated the level of response from the west. Perhaps that is because Putin is so isolated and Russia is such an insular and corrupt country that they just had bad information about all of those things and those who knew differently were either not in a position of power to raise objections, or were not asked.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Szdfan

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Szdfan »

RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:33 pm I don’t understand what the point of rushing hundreds of millions of dollars in weapons to Ukraine is, if everyone agrees that it is just a matter of time before Russia takes over the country anyway. If they are determined to stop Russia, the West might as well commit to WW3 and not mess around. Otherwise, let Russia win the war sooner than later.
First of all, I think the Ukrainians have done better and the Russians worse than anyone expected.

Secondly, without escalating the conflict, I think it’s in the best interest of the West to make this invasion as painful and costly as possible for Russia to help deter any potential actions like this in the future.
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Szdfan

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Szdfan »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:05 pm
Dan Z wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:10 pm
Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.
Why would Russia be doing the same actions to bring about a world war? it seems like their own existence, safety and particularly their prosperity is severely hampered. Why is Russia the only country with an irrational leader? might it be that some in NATO's countries are also irrational and world war may be being plotted by irrational actors on both sides?
I don’t think anyone really wants WWIII and I think looking at what’s going on as a nefarious irrational plot is the wrong framing. The different sides are acting out their different self-interests, which are in conflict with each other. What Russia or NATO are doing may be wrong, but it’s not irrational. We’re not talking about James Bondian supervillains plotting world domination in their secret island volcano lairs.
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temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

Dan Z wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:10 pm
nett wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:55 pm
Dan Z wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:11 pm Really?!? :shock: Frankly, this seems darkly cynical to me, and I'm struggling to see how a 3rd World War would benefit anyone - especially NATO.
What leads you to this conclusion?
The events leading to American entry in WW2 and especially WW1 is pretty darkly cynical too.

Bootstrap, Ken and DanZ, you all seem to have a very boyscoutish view of America / the West. I can't reconcile that with reality.

Why do you just assume NATO would be anti-war?
Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.
Heinous crimes require setting aside presuppositions of sanity. Regarding individuals or in global politics.
Some study these things all their lives, like John Mearsheimer.
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:33 pm I don’t understand what the point of rushing hundreds of millions of dollars in weapons to Ukraine is, if everyone agrees that it is just a matter of time before Russia takes over the country anyway. If they are determined to stop Russia, the West might as well commit to WW3 and not mess around. Otherwise, let Russia win the war sooner than later.

It’s what the U.S. does, SOP, it transports weapons. i’m always thankful when they’re not used. They are not always used.

In this case, it may be a factor in giving Ukraine “muscle” in negotiations.
I am MOST interested in results of talks between Putin and Zelensky. Clearly, media is NOT.
Oddly, there doesn’t seem to be much interest in talks on this forum. Thanks to mike for sharing what he finds. :)

As for Ukraine just submitting to the inevitable. If all we had were human reasoning, sure. 100% human logic.
But, we have God. “Bidden or not bidden, God is present.” No one would have guessed David would prevail over Goliath.
In my life, i’ve learned to “leave space for God’s will” / the unknown. This can turn out to be surprising.

God assures: Life is more than 1+1=2.

The press had NO interest in Trudeau revoking the Emergencies Act. No one expected it. He did it.
The press had to find new pots to stir. Putin complied. Biden+buddies are in their prideful glory. Rah Rah. :-|
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