Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Dan Z

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Dan Z »

nett wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:24 pm
Dan Z wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:48 pm
I would only add, more forcefully than the article did, that the reasons given for the invasion are woefully inadequate to justify the death, destruction, and suffering caused by the Putin regime choosing to invade its western neighbor: Millions are being displaced, thousands are being killed, a beautiful Eastern-European country - its culture and people - are begin decimated. As non-resistant Christians, we should be grieved by what is happening. Even by "just war" standards, this rationale does not warrant the invasion of Ukraine.
If this is the case, what would an example of a just war be?

In terms of human or capital loss, I don't think this war is even on the scale of what has become "normal" in my lifetime.
Josh wrote:Whoa, Dan. What are you saying here?
I'm saying exactly what I'm saying.

I appreciated Ernie's article for balancing out the one-sided western spin on what is going on in Ukraine, and for empathy's sake it may be helpful to think about why Russia invaded its neighbor. However, it must still be recognized that even by most worldly standards (including Augustinian "just war" criteria) the Russian reasons for their actions don't come near to justifying the wholesale invasion and destruction of a neighboring country. As a result of Putin's choice to invade Ukraine, there are now dozens of destroyed cities, hundreds of dead civilians, thousands of dead soldiers, millions of refugees, 10's of millions of shattered lives, and a world brought closer to nuclear hell. Simply put, a large-scale war now exists where it hadn't existed just a few weeks ago. That wrong can't be "balanced out" by telling the Russian side of the story.

By the way, this reminds me a lot of the 2003 US Invasion of Iraq - and I would (and did) say some of the same things about what happened there. Reprehensible!
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barnhart
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by barnhart »

I agree Dan, there might be reasons for Russia to feel a little hurt but that does not justify invasion and occupation.
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Soloist

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Soloist »

I certainly am not defending them, but in a secular sense, most wars are fought over arbitrary reasons already and we should be careful not to side with any military/government in my opinion. Let us take advantage of the times though and follow the logic of not allowing a good disaster to go to waste. We certainly have with much of the south in Hurricane response... no churches followed up with anything in Louisiana.

While the members of the Ukraine churches are being scattered, perhaps this scattering will reward a larger harvest as it did in the first scattering from Jerusalem.
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Dan Z

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Dan Z »

Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:08 pm I certainly am not defending them, but in a secular sense, most wars are fought over arbitrary reasons already and we should be careful not to side with any military/government in my opinion.
I agree in part, but just because I recognize Russia as the aggressior doesn’t mean I’m in league with the Ukrainian military in any real sense. In 2003 I clearly saw the United States as the aggressior, but that did not endear me to Saddam Hussein. It did however make me grieve deeply for the fate of the Iraqi civilians suffering at the hands of my country’s government. In the same way, I grieve for the Ukrainian people and for their loss. They are the victims here. Understanding Putin’s rationale does nothing to change that.
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Ken
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Why no-fly zones are a really bad idea
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... -zone.html

It’s time to banish the phrase “no-fly zone.”

Dropping it would clarify the debate about whether to impose one in the skies over Ukraine. The term makes doing such a thing sound so easy, purely protective, almost passive, like a safety patrol guard holding a stop sign at a crosswalk.

A more accurate term—one that better describes its scope and stakes—is “air combat operation,” which, under these circumstances, translates as “going to war against Russia.” Would 74 percent of Americans—the number who say they support a no-fly zone—back that?

At this point, much of Washington seems to recognize that mounting a no-fly zone above Ukraine in an effort to frustrate Vladimir Putin’s invasion would be a catastrophically bad idea. The White House has waved away the suggestion, and there’s been little pushback even from many Republicans looking for new reasons to oppose President Joe Biden.

Yet a debate persists. It was the hottest topic during this Sunday’s political talk shows, and on Meet the Press, Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia said he believed that the option shouldn’t be “taken off the table.” The main reason the notion hasn’t disappeared is that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky—quite rightly the most admired political leader in the world—continues to ask for one. It seems almost churlish to dismiss his request out of hand.

To impose a no-fly zone means just that—to prevent any airplanes, other than our own, from flying in a defined area of space. In the past few decades, the U.S. has done this over Iraq, Libya, and Serbia, to protect civilians from attacks by tyrannical regimes. But protection requires attacking the attackers—shooting down airplanes that come into the zone and bombing air-defense weapons that threaten our own airplanes.

These zones are elaborate, complex undertakings. In the decade between our two wars in Iraq, when the U.S. and United Kingdom imposed no-fly zones in the south (to protect Shiites) and the north (to protect Kurds), American combat planes flew over 200,000 sorties and dropped more than 1,000 bombs on more than 240 targets. In a two-day campaign in 1996 to destroy Iraqi surface-to-air missiles, they launched 44 cruise missiles.

In 1999, during the Serbian war, U.S. and NATO combat jets took 78 days to establish a no-fly zone over an area about the size of Connecticut. And the planes fired 743 advanced air-to-ground missiles in order to destroy 44 Serbian surface-to-air missile sites and a smattering of anti-air guns. (Establishing a no-fly zone requires the military to obliterate ground weapons that could target its own planes.) Even so, two of those jets were shot down, and the U.S. never established air supremacy—full control of the air and the elimination of all threats from the ground.

Ukraine is 50 percent larger than all of Iraq and eight times the size of Serbia. And while a no-fly zone wouldn’t have to cover the entire country, it would have to protect the areas around Kyiv, Kharkiv, Odessa, and the humanitarian corridors to Lviv and further west. Also, compared with the armies of Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic, the Russian military in Ukraine has more—and longer-range—airplanes and air-defense systems.

This would be a much more extensive, complex, and—more to the point—deadly operation.

In other words, the United States and NATO would be at war with Russia. They would damage a lot of Russian military gear and kill a number of Russian troops, even if they refrained from bombarding Russian tanks, vehicles, and supply lines—and, once in the fight, there would be pressure to do that as well. Vladimir Putin might reasonably think that was the next step. In the fog of war, he might think the NATO planes were doing that already—and might respond accordingly.

A no-fly zone might not even be a very effective way of protecting the Ukrainian civilians who are coming under attack. Most of them have been wounded or killed by Russian artillery, not by Russian airplanes.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
nett
Posts: 1953
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by nett »

Szdfan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:30 pm
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:03 pm
nett wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:45 pm

might want to reconsider your enemies when that makes your "friend" literally neo-nazis.
I'm not sure I understand all this harping on "rampant neo-Nazism" in Ukraine. At a personal level: if my house is on fire and a skin-head or Neo-Nazi or Klansmen arrive on the scene to offer help, I'm not going to turn them away because of their nihilistic, evil worldview; imma give them a hose.

As an Anabaptist I can abhor Neo-Nazism, Putin's invasion and war more generally and all without having to choose a side. I can lament all of it and pray for God's peace in all of it and the particular politics of any one actor is entirely incidental to my abhorrence of all of it. I see no one cheering on the Ukrainians here in an unqualified way or clamoring for war with Russia. What I do see are some that are dubious of Putin's justifications for invasion and occupation. Does an incredulity at Mr. Putin's stated motives make them ipso facto cheerleaders for Nazism-reborn?

From a worldly perspective; maybe the animating philosophy of a random battalion of cos-players is secondary to the existential threat of an invading nuclear power bent on your obliteration. We can talk about the long-term wisdom of arming potential future-enemies and history is replete with examples of short-term gain and long-term tragedy (USA & Soviets, Mao & Kai-shek, USA & Mujahedeen, etc.) but inasmuch as war is an evil, clanging on about the morality of Nazis hidden in the ranks, seems like straining at a gnat.
The "neo-Nazi" accusation is a significant portion of the Russian propaganda and justification for the invasion. The glimmer of truth is that there neo-Nazi groups like the Azov battalion, but the argument that the Ukrainian government (with its Jewish president) hasn't been substantiated. At the beginning of the invasion, my father compared it to 1943, which I think is a problematic metaphor for a lot of reasons, but it speaks to the power of Russian propaganda to shape public opinion.

This time, the propaganda hasn't had the same effectiveness in the West as before. Previously, the Russians had deflected international criticism by arguing that their invasion of Chechyna and Georgia was against Muslim extremists and part of the War on Terror. That strategy has not worked this time and is being rather effectively countered by the Ukrainian perspective.
by "Ukrainian perspective", do you mean "Ukrainian propaganda"?
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ohio jones

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by ohio jones »

mike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:27 pm
Poland is struggling to deal with the influx. Tonight someone told me that there are 50 very young children “camping” at the train station in Wrocław. May God have mercy.
For context, here's the train station (in a more peaceful time):

Image

Image

Image

... and a stationary train.

Image
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Neto

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Neto »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:23 pm Just so we're all clear, here is what the Azov battalion looks like:

Image

As much as I might criticise the U.S. military, we do not have organised units of America's army that do this.
That red flag does not appear to be an original part of that picture. The top is too straight part way across. There is a white spot next to the guy's arm that makes one leg of the swastika much shorter than the others. Another one of the legs is narrower than the others. The left side of the flag goes up, so there would have to be some wrinkling or distortion of the swastika below that point, and there isn't. Looks totally fake to me. Poorly done PhotoShop job.
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Josh

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Josh »

Neto wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:43 am
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:23 pm Just so we're all clear, here is what the Azov battalion looks like:

Image

As much as I might criticise the U.S. military, we do not have organised units of America's army that do this.
That red flag does not appear to be an original part of that picture. The top is too straight part way across. There is a white spot next to the guy's arm that makes one leg of the swastika much shorter than the others. Another one of the legs is narrower than the others. The left side of the flag goes up, so there would have to be some wrinkling or distortion of the swastika below that point, and there isn't. Looks totally fake to me. Poorly done PhotoShop job.
There are plenty of other pictures like this. Neto, are you saying you don’t believe Azov subscribes to neo Nazi ideology?
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ken_sylvania

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by ken_sylvania »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:05 am
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:43 am
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:23 pm Just so we're all clear, here is what the Azov battalion looks like:

Image

As much as I might criticise the U.S. military, we do not have organised units of America's army that do this.
That red flag does not appear to be an original part of that picture. The top is too straight part way across. There is a white spot next to the guy's arm that makes one leg of the swastika much shorter than the others. Another one of the legs is narrower than the others. The left side of the flag goes up, so there would have to be some wrinkling or distortion of the swastika below that point, and there isn't. Looks totally fake to me. Poorly done PhotoShop job.
There are plenty of other pictures like this. Neto, are you saying you don’t believe Azov subscribes to neo Nazi ideology?
I'm sure there are plenty of other pictures like the one you provided - pictures that have been edited and offensive elements added in to serve as propaganda. Why not swallow your pride and admit that you were wrong to have accused the Azov battalion of posing with a swastika flag? You insist that Bootstrap ought to admit when he makes a mistake - why do you refuse to admit when you are wrong?
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