Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Dan Z]

For those who want a long response to the question of why Russia is invading Ukraine, you can read what we published here.

https://www.plainnews.org/2022/03/09/wh ... g-ukraine/

I think its fair, but I'm not sure that some here would agree.

I thought it was fair as well - as others have mentioned, these types of decisions don't happen in a vacuum.

I would only add, more forcefully than the article did, that the reasons given for the invasion are woefully inadequate to justify the death, destruction, and suffering caused by the Putin regime choosing to invade its western neighbor: Millions are being displaced, thousands are being killed, a beautiful Eastern-European country - its culture and people - are begin decimated. As non-resistant Christians, we should be grieved by what is happening. Even by "just war" standards, this rationale does not warrant the invasion of Ukraine.

[temporal1]

For those who want a long response to the question of why Russia is invading Ukraine, you can read what we published here.

https://www.plainnews.org/2022/03/09/wh ... g-ukraine/

I think its fair, but I'm not sure that some here would agree.

I thought it was fair as well - as others have mentioned, these types of decisions don't happen in a vacuum.

I would only add, more forcefully than the article did, that the reasons given for the invasion are woefully inadequate to justify the death, destruction, and suffering caused by the Putin regime choosing to invade its western neighbor: Millions are being displaced, thousands are being killed, a beautiful Eastern-European country - its culture and people - are begin decimated. As non-resistant Christians, we should be grieved by what is happening. Even by "just war" standards, this rationale does not warrant the invasion of Ukraine.

i’m not aware of anyone suggesting the invasion is warranted. it’s a matter of response. Sun Tzu or Jesus? Sun Tzu and Jesus?
for myself, the talks are the biggest hope for practical resolution between world powers. to stop the slaughter.
Jesus definitely to attend to the many victims.

what does Jesus want regarding Putin? that’s the hard question.

.. REALLY hard one:
Matthew 5:46
https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-46.htm
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Do not even tax collectors do the same?

47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others?
Do not even Gentiles do the same?…

The rubber hits the road ..

[HondurasKeiser]

The enemy of my enemy is also my friend.

might want to reconsider your enemies when that makes your "friend" literally neo-nazis.

I'm not sure I understand all this harping on "rampant neo-Nazism" in Ukraine. At a personal level: if my house is on fire and a skin-head or Neo-Nazi or Klansmen arrive on the scene to offer help, I'm not going to turn them away because of their nihilistic, evil worldview; imma give them a hose.

As an Anabaptist I can abhor Neo-Nazism, Putin's invasion and war more generally and all without having to choose a side. I can lament all of it and pray for God's peace in all of it and the particular politics of any one actor is entirely incidental to my abhorrence of all of it. I see no one cheering on the Ukrainians here in an unqualified way or clamoring for war with Russia. What I do see are some that are dubious of Putin's justifications for invasion and occupation. Does an incredulity at Mr. Putin's stated motives make them ipso facto cheerleaders for Nazism-reborn?

From a worldly perspective; maybe the animating philosophy of a random battalion of cos-players is secondary to the existential threat of an invading nuclear power bent on your obliteration. We can talk about the long-term wisdom of arming potential future-enemies and history is replete with examples of short-term gain and long-term tragedy (USA & Soviets, Mao & Kai-shek, USA & Mujahedeen, etc.) but inasmuch as war is an evil, clanging on about the morality of Nazis hidden in the ranks, seems like straining at a gnat.

[nett]

The enemy of my enemy is also my friend.

might want to reconsider your enemies when that makes your "friend" literally neo-nazis.

I'm not sure I understand all this harping on "rampant neo-Nazism" in Ukraine. At a personal level: if my house is on fire and a skin-head or Neo-Nazi or Klansmen arrive on the scene to offer help, I'm not going to turn them away because of their nihilistic, evil worldview; imma give them a hose.

As an Anabaptist I can abhor Neo-Nazism, Putin's invasion and war more generally and all without having to choose a side. I can lament all of it and pray for God's peace in all of it and the particular politics of any one actor is entirely incidental to my abhorrence of all of it. I see no one cheering on the Ukrainians here in an unqualified way or clamoring for war with Russia. What I do see are some that are dubious of Putin's justifications for invasion and occupation. Does an incredulity at Mr. Putin's stated motives make them ipso facto cheerleaders for Nazism-reborn?

From a worldly perspective; maybe the animating philosophy of a random battalion of cos-players is secondary to the existential threat of an invading nuclear power bent on your obliteration. We can talk about the long-term wisdom of arming potential future-enemies and history is replete with examples of short-term gain and long-term tragedy (USA & Soviets, Mao & Kai-shek, USA & Mujahedeen, etc.) but inasmuch as war is an evil, clanging on about the morality of Nazis hidden in the ranks, seems like straining at a gnat.

I can't believe I have to say this, but arming neo-nazis is a bad idea. This combined with an ever increasing public rhetoric to dehumanize Russians is very concerning.

I think it would be preferable for Putin conquer and control Ukraine than for the Asov Battalion gain any more power than they already have. They are objectively more evil than Putin.

Why is the sovereignty of the Ukraine so sacred? If this sovereignty depends on having neo-nazis (who have spent the last 8 years racially persecuting Russians) integrated into its military, I think The Ukraine deserves to lose it's sovereignty.

[Josh]

Even by "just war" standards, this rationale does not warrant the invasion of Ukraine.

Whoa, Dan. What are you saying here?

[Josh]

Just so we're all clear, here is what the Azov battalion looks like:



As much as I might criticise the U.S. military, we do not have organised units of America's army that do this.

[nett]

I would only add, more forcefully than the article did, that the reasons given for the invasion are woefully inadequate to justify the death, destruction, and suffering caused by the Putin regime choosing to invade its western neighbor: Millions are being displaced, thousands are being killed, a beautiful Eastern-European country - its culture and people - are begin decimated. As non-resistant Christians, we should be grieved by what is happening. Even by "just war" standards, this rationale does not warrant the invasion of Ukraine.

If this is the case, what would an example of a just war be?

In terms of human or capital loss, I don't think this war is even on the scale of what has become "normal" in my lifetime.

[mike]

Poland sending all its fighter planes to Ukraine is a real escalation of the conflict, especially if other NATO countries follow suit.

Looks like this is not happening, at least if it is dependent on the US facilitating it.

[mike]

[Szdfan]

The enemy of my enemy is also my friend.

might want to reconsider your enemies when that makes your "friend" literally neo-nazis.

I'm not sure I understand all this harping on "rampant neo-Nazism" in Ukraine. At a personal level: if my house is on fire and a skin-head or Neo-Nazi or Klansmen arrive on the scene to offer help, I'm not going to turn them away because of their nihilistic, evil worldview; imma give them a hose.

As an Anabaptist I can abhor Neo-Nazism, Putin's invasion and war more generally and all without having to choose a side. I can lament all of it and pray for God's peace in all of it and the particular politics of any one actor is entirely incidental to my abhorrence of all of it. I see no one cheering on the Ukrainians here in an unqualified way or clamoring for war with Russia. What I do see are some that are dubious of Putin's justifications for invasion and occupation. Does an incredulity at Mr. Putin's stated motives make them ipso facto cheerleaders for Nazism-reborn?

From a worldly perspective; maybe the animating philosophy of a random battalion of cos-players is secondary to the existential threat of an invading nuclear power bent on your obliteration. We can talk about the long-term wisdom of arming potential future-enemies and history is replete with examples of short-term gain and long-term tragedy (USA & Soviets, Mao & Kai-shek, USA & Mujahedeen, etc.) but inasmuch as war is an evil, clanging on about the morality of Nazis hidden in the ranks, seems like straining at a gnat.

The "neo-Nazi" accusation is a significant portion of the Russian propaganda and justification for the invasion. The glimmer of truth is that there neo-Nazi groups like the Azov battalion, but the argument that the Ukrainian government (with its Jewish president) hasn't been substantiated. At the beginning of the invasion, my father compared it to 1943, which I think is a problematic metaphor for a lot of reasons, but it speaks to the power of Russian propaganda to shape public opinion.

This time, the propaganda hasn't had the same effectiveness in the West as before. Previously, the Russians had deflected international criticism by arguing that their invasion of Chechyna and Georgia was against Muslim extremists and part of the War on Terror. That strategy has not worked this time and is being rather effectively countered by the Ukrainian perspective.