Haiti Kidnapping

[Ken]

I think every organization with multiple missions around the world has to deal with this same issue and decide which locations are safe for families and which are to great of a security risk to bring spouses and dependents along. The State Department does the same exact thing and there are postings around the world where families are welcome and postings in high-risk areas where they are not allowed.

I don’t think, for example, that any organization would contemplate bringing families and children along on postings to war zones like Syria or Yemen right now.

The question I would have with respect to Haiti (or any other location) is whether this is a decision that each organization reaches on its own or do they generally all follow the same guidance from the State Department or other agencies. And whether all mission agencies coordinate and operate more or less in lock-step or are they all over the map and each doing their own thing. For example, does CAM have a higher risk tolerance than say Catholic Relief Services (to cite another random mission organization). Or are they all more or less on the same page.

So I would be curious about how mission agencies make these determinations and how much they coordinate and collaborate with other similar organizations working in the same places.

[Josh]

I was actually asking Dan a serious question —


—so I would appreciate it if the trolling and squabbling could stop and not drown out my question.

I think the fact you think Haiti is somehow "high risk" but ignore other situations basically as bad needs to be addressed. And yes, there are parts of America as bad as Haiti in terms of the violence that everyday people suffer. (Indeed, we've been hearing about it from the likes of you for quite a while.)

This is a thread on Haiti and foreign missions. Please stop trolling.

I’m not “trolling”. So to get back in topic, I find it colonialist and imperialist to act like Haiti is somehow fundamentally different than the security situation in the good ol’ USA.

In my own denomination, we have about 1,000 members in Haiti, and used to have lots and lots of traffic back and forth. This has dwindled to nothing because travel specifically has become unsafe and a target for kidnappings.

There are almost no North American-background Holdemans left in Haiti anymore; the only ones are girls who married husbands in Haiti and live there permanently. It used to be criminals wouldn’t attack westerners or a mixed westerner-Haitian couple but that isn’t the case anymore. So they stay where they live in their villages in the mountains now.

We had a nurse who died last week in Haiti. He was from Texas. He died of a mysterious respiratory illness; he tested negative for COVID in an ambulance (an ambulance ride from the mountains to a city is quite a long ordeal there). He left behind a wife and children who are returning to the U.S. now. The clinic he volunteered at is effectively entirely run by Haitians now, as far as I know.

Back to my larger point, given the direction America is going on, I have no reason to believe America won’t end up the same way in the not too distant future.

Due to travel restrictions, immigration restrictions, and vaccination restrictions, I doubt many of our Haitian brethren will attend our general conference this year, which is a very sad loss. (The same will probably be true for several other countries.) I am generally more ideologically aligned with the brethren from those places on several topics like IVF that are currently controversial, and feel their input is badly needed.

[Ernie]

With the recent hostage situation, clear stories were given by the hostages about what happened. But some didn't believe this at all. They rather spin stories like this even though there is was/is clear evidence to the contrary. http://yonkerstimes.com/new-details-eme ... -was-paid/

For the record:

HOSTAGES FREED

https://christianaidministries.org/hait ... abduction/

And if you listen to the report from CAM, it is fairly clear to me who CAM thinks deserves credit for freeing the hostages. They certainly didn't give any credit to the gang.

[steve-in-kville]

With the recent hostage situation, clear stories were given by the hostages about what happened. But some didn't believe this at all. They rather spin stories like this even though there is was/is clear evidence to the contrary. http://yonkerstimes.com/new-details-eme ... -was-paid/

For the record:

HOSTAGES FREED

https://christianaidministries.org/hait ... abduction/

And if you listen to the report from CAM, it is fairly clear to me who CAM thinks deserves credit for freeing the hostages. They certainly didn't give any credit to the gang.

I think we can all agree that all glory goes to God. No one is debating that.

I really see no reason to hash this over (again) on the forum.

[Ernie]

I don't know how many of you listened to the story of Barry Grant, the CAM Haiti director, but I really resonate with his spiritual perspectives. You can read it here.
https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... apping.pdf

Some here on MN thought the answer to the crisis was to pay a ransom. But paying a ransom did not release the captives. Once they got the money, the kidnappers changed the terms and demanded the release of a gang leader also. Once they demanded the release of the gang leader, and the Haitian government refused to release him, the gang quit talking to the negotiators. And then everything went quiet for days...

So once all the king's horses and all the king's men (all the negotiators and the ransom payers) had exhausted all their options and resources (except for a tactical rescue mission in which some of the captives would have likely been killed), the hostages were still not freed. Everyone including the king's men had no good ideas left. And then is when God can show himself strong. And He did!

According to one self-approved pundit, the gang ordered the whole surrounding area to let the hostages walk out free. (not true)
Even if it was true, I suppose it is possible to tell people to be quiet. But anyone who has dogs knows that you can't order hundreds of dogs to be quiet during the night if they hear or smell something unusual, unless you are God.

I look forward to eternity, when we can learn whose prayers around the world moved the heart of God, and how this resulted in God freeing the hostages!

[mike]

I don't know how many of you listened to the story of Barry Grant, the CAM Haiti director, but I really resonate with his spiritual perspectives.
https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... apping.pdf

I listened to it, and we enjoyed it very much.

[Joy]

I don't know how many of you listened to the story of Barry Grant, the CAM Haiti director, but I really resonate with his spiritual perspectives. You can read it here.
https://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/up ... apping.pdf

Some here on MN thought the answer to the crisis was to pay a ransom. But paying a ransom did not release the captives. Once they got the money, the kidnappers changed the terms and demanded the release of a gang leader also. Once they demanded the release of the gang leader, and the Haitian government refused to release him, the gang quit talking to the negotiators. And then everything went quiet for days...

So once all the king's horses and all the king's men (all the negotiators and the ransom payers) had exhausted all their options and resources (except for a tactical rescue mission in which some of the captives would have likely been killed), the hostages were still not freed. Everyone including the king's men had no good ideas left. And then is when God can show himself strong. And He did!

According to one self-approved pundit, the gang ordered the whole surrounding area to let the hostages walk out free. (not true)
Even if it was true, I suppose it is possible to tell people to be quiet. But anyone who has dogs knows that you can't order hundreds of dogs to be quiet during the night if they hear or smell something unusual, unless you are God.

I look forward to eternity, when we can learn whose prayers around the world moved the heart of God, and how this resulted in God freeing the hostages!

But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel. [Exo 11:7 KJV]

I would agree that the silence of the dogs was a sign that it was God doing this, for sure! I would also believe the captives' narrative above any other.

[RZehr]

Not sure how much people are aware of this, but I heard that there has been another group of about 22 +/- people kidnapped in Haiti recently. Apparently one of them may be the spouse and/or child of one of CAM's Haitian employees there? I don't know much beyond that or if it is true.

[Soloist]

Not sure how much people are aware of this, but I heard that there has been another group of about 22 +/- people kidnapped in Haiti recently. Apparently one of them may be the spouse and/or child of one of CAM's Haitian employees there? I don't know much beyond that or if it is true.

Now will people still care? now that their own loved are safe? Will we still have organized fasts from CAM? will generous donors offer bribes that ultimately were useless? or will the silent group pray and silently God will work?

[RZehr]

Not sure how much people are aware of this, but I heard that there has been another group of about 22 +/- people kidnapped in Haiti recently. Apparently one of them may be the spouse and/or child of one of CAM's Haitian employees there? I don't know much beyond that or if it is true.

Now will people still care? now that their own loved are safe? Will we still have organized fasts from CAM? will generous donors offer bribes that ultimately were useless? or will the silent group pray and silently God will work?

I’m guessing that much or all of the above has/is happening. But I might expect the ones who are doing so, are Haitian instead of American.