joshuabgood wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 4:18 pm
The heart of this issue is Anabaptist Exceptionalism. A great essay out on it...earlier from the consortia.
When you know best you don't really need to listen.
mike wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:26 am
Anabaptists don't participate in the government and in enforcing anything by threat of violence (which is by definition most if not all things that are mandated by government). Yet, we understand the role of the sword as being ordained by God while outside the perfection of Jesus Christ.
I think this is one of the reasons some Anabaptists tend to struggle with government mandates and the expansion of the role of government generally. We dislike enforcement by the threat of physical violence, and the further the exercise of the sword of governmental power steps outside the limited role of restraining evil, the more uncomfortable we get with it.
Some of this also has its roots in our history, when we were persecuted for religious reasons, even as recently as the 20th century by the American government before there were allowances for conscientious objection to war. We want to live in peace and freedom because we have this corporate memory of when those things were denied us.
I think this fear of government overreach, while justified in many ways, does not excuse some of the bad behavior of Anabaptists in relation to government mandates, but it may help to explain it.
Yes, this does help to explain. I'm wondering if the "bad behavior" has increased in the last 100 years as plain Anabaptists have received various exemptions for a wide variety of things - anything from CO status to not needing to install sanitary outhouses. Seems to me that in the 1500 and 1600's, many Anabaptists were willing to comply with anything they could in order to keep the good will of civil authorities with the hopes that civil authorities would give them religious exemptions when necessary. Many early Anabaptists also followed the scriptural instructions for obeying governors and all that are in authority except when their commands violated the higher laws of God. Some Anabaptists today still practice this. I know of one group of churches who talked to their local state representative who told them they could do as they liked, in direct disobedience to the governor's orders. I don't think this type of behavior will stand us well in the future.
Maybe it's because I don't see this bad behaviour, but it sure seems like you liberal minded folk look for bad examples to justify yourselves.
Many people of the world are trusting the COVID vaccine as their saviour and that goes right along with trusting man and science over God.
The more you continue to focus on bad behaviour and go along with supporting the ways of the world the more you loose any way to share Christ the real Saviour with the world.
I think we can comply to a degree with mandates but still share the hope of Christ - I get no impression that any of you three are doing that...
Ernie wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:49 am
I'm wondering if the "bad behavior" has increased in the last 100 years as plain Anabaptists have received various exemptions for a wide variety of things - anything from CO status to not needing to install sanitary outhouses.
I think all of what you are saying is likely, but also think about the fact that in the past 100 years western governments have expanded their administrative oversight in unprecedented ways as our society grows more complex. In many ways, the world is changing around Anabaptists (and everybody else of course), and many Anabaptists are slower to adopt changes.
Wade wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:25 am
Maybe it's because I don't see this bad behaviour, but it sure seems like you liberal minded folk look for bad examples to justify yourselves.
Many people of the world are trusting the COVID vaccine as their saviour and that goes right along with trusting man and science over God.
The more you continue to focus on bad behaviour and go along with supporting the ways of the world the more you loose any way to share Christ the real Saviour with the world.
I think we can comply to a degree with mandates but still share the hope of Christ - I get no impression that any of you three are doing that...
Wade, can I offer you an example of bad behavior I am talking about? In the height of the pandemic, Walmart required masks for entry, and staff stood by to offer you a mask if you didn't have one. In our area, plain people sometimes rudely refused to acknowledge the requirement or the staff that were just doing their job, and proceeded into the store unmasked. Many people observed this kind of behavior and wondered why these Mennonites wouldn't comply. Can I ask you what chance these people had of sharing Christ with the world while behaving in this manner? Would it surprise you if I told you that the chances of them being able to witness for Christ in those circumstances was reduced?
Wade wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:25 am
Maybe it's because I don't see this bad behaviour, but it sure seems like you liberal minded folk look for bad examples to justify yourselves.
Many people of the world are trusting the COVID vaccine as their saviour and that goes right along with trusting man and science over God.
The more you continue to focus on bad behaviour and go along with supporting the ways of the world the more you loose any way to share Christ the real Saviour with the world.
I think we can comply to a degree with mandates but still share the hope of Christ - I get no impression that any of you three are doing that...
Wade, can I offer you an example of bad behavior I am talking about? In the height of the pandemic, Walmart required masks for entry, and staff stood by to offer you a mask if you didn't have one. In our area, plain people sometimes rudely refused to acknowledge the requirement or the staff that were just doing their job, and proceeded into the store unmasked. Many people observed this kind of behavior and wondered why these Mennonites wouldn't comply. Can I ask you what chance these people had of sharing Christ with the world while behaving in this manner? Would it surprise you if I told you that the chances of them being able to witness for Christ in those circumstances was reduced?
That's something I never seen.
What I've personally seen is compliance, but maybe us ultra conservatives are much different?
What I've seen is a huge host of people in fear lined up for an experimental unethical vaccine as their thinking this is what is going to save humanity. So when people like you who have had COVID but still go get the shot, to me, you have no message to send the lost in having hope in Christ because you affirm there attempts at appeasing their fear that man will solve their fear.
Wade wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:36 am
That's something I never seen.
What I've personally seen is compliance, but maybe us ultra conservatives are much different?
What I've seen is a huge host of people in fear lined up for an experimental unethical vaccine as their thinking this is what is going to save humanity. So when people like you who have had COVID but still go get the shot, to me, you have no message to send the lost in having hope in Christ because you affirm there attempts at appeasing their fear that man will solve their fear.
I'm glad you have not seen this in your area. You are fortunate. In our area, it was commonplace, not limited to plain Anabaptists of course.
I'm sorry you feel that I have no message to send the lost because I got a Covid vaccine. In your opinion, does anyone who goes to the doctor for an illness or preventive treatment also likewise lose their Christian testimony, because they do so in fear rather than having hope in Christ? If not, what makes the Covid vaccine unique in terms of making a Christian lose the ability to reach the lost for Christ?
Wade wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:36 am
That's something I never seen.
What I've personally seen is compliance, but maybe us ultra conservatives are much different?
What I've seen is a huge host of people in fear lined up for an experimental unethical vaccine as their thinking this is what is going to save humanity. So when people like you who have had COVID but still go get the shot, to me, you have no message to send the lost in having hope in Christ because you affirm there attempts at appeasing their fear that man will solve their fear.
I'm glad you have not seen this in your area. You are fortunate. In our area, it was commonplace, not limited to plain Anabaptists of course.
I'm sorry you feel that I have no message to send the lost because I got a Covid vaccine. In your opinion, does anyone who goes to the doctor for an illness or preventive treatment also likewise lose their Christian testimony, because they do so in fear rather than having hope in Christ? If not, what makes the Covid vaccine unique in terms of making a Christian lose the ability to reach the lost for Christ?
You had COVID.... Your consent to an unethical vaccine when you had natural immunity is utterly confusing to say the least. The people I know getting the vaccine are unbelievers who are fearful. For a believer to get an unethical vaccine when they have natural immunity sends a message to these fearful unbelievers that we should follow the world and why would they think you have anything to offer to stop their fears if you aren't doing anything different than them?