Why I Cannot Support Death Penalty

[temporal1]

nett:
.. Western culture has become unable to accept death [or life] in a healthy way, and that includes death as a punishment for evil. ..

(i believe) “Western” culture, or “developed” countries, with all the earthly comforts they offer, are in full need of God Jesus, not just as a handy reference for cherry picking useful words out of scriptures to win political arguments.

The intent of capital punishment is to kill, as it is in war, but in neither case is it gratuitous, that is, it is part of a strategy to achieve a higher purpose. Maybe it is semantics, but executions are a civilized society's way of expressing its revulsion at the calloused disrespect for life represented by murder.

The expense of securing a death sentence is largely a function of the legal hurdles placed in the path of prosecutors and the appeals afforded defendants which are most often paid for by public funds.

That there are so few executions speaks to the point that our judicial system is not fostering a culture of death by over enthusiastic use of the penalty, but rather by failure to defend the populace against a murderous criminal element.

on this forum, i’m certain of everyone’s heart for this topic. not a doubt in my mind. no one is seeking revenge.
it’s a heavy burden to try to think of what is “right” in Jesus’ eyes.

About the cross.
1. Jesus did not resist a horrifying unjust death.
2. Jesus pardoned the thief, He did not interfere with his execution.
3. Jesus did not demand $20,000-$100,000 in payment for defense or salvation.*

From what i read on this forum, Joy, and others in prison ministry, are accomplishing the work of Jesus, as difficult as that burden must be. In my heart and mind, i know i would not last an hour in their shoes/sandals. God bless them.

i also pray for victims, their loved ones, esp for fatherless homes. i pray for fathers to be present and constructive leaders.
i pray for all the MANY people tasked with responding to crime, from first responders, police+EMTs, firefighters, etc.; for judges and juries. and for all those burdened with the government’s WORK of executions, when deemed necessary. i couldn’t do it. i couldn’t witness it. in the U.S., i do not presume these workers are evil, seeking revenge, hate-filled, or other. they are not of mob rule or “lynchers.” they have hard jobs that come at personal cost. i could not do these necessary jobs.

crimes+sins come at heavy cost to society, the costs continue into generations after. esp violent crimes+sins.
no human invented this.

God knows humans.
(i believe) the single greatest deterrent to crimes+sins (for everyone of us) is the basic understanding that the high price will be paid by our loved ones and community, right along with us. true, not everyone gets this message in time. most are capable of remorse AFTER imprisonment, many find Truth and are saved in eternity (like the thief on the cross). we pray it is all, everyone.

maybe steve will do a poll. what stops evil thoughts/actions?
on whether each of us has been tempted to commit crimes/sins, but have been stopped, knowing the harm it would do to our loved ones? in my mind, this is powerful motivation for self-restraint. no matter the gravity of the crimes/sins.

conversely, how often are crimes/sins committed WITH INTENT to improve life for loved ones?
it’s important not to craft laws that reward criminal choices. when this happens, crime will result.

Pray for the Holy Spirit to protect+guide.

*(i suspect) the high cost of legal defense ADDS to crimes committed. desperate people do desperate things.
loved ones outside might be tempted or pressured to commit crimes to provide payment.
incarceration does not always stop criminal activity. esp when gangs/mafias/cartels are involved, with chains of command outside prison walls.

[temporal1]

I'm not active in this thread, yet I am intrigued by the discussion here. If its wrong to take a life, how would you interpret this?:

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

judgment in eternity.

[Josh]

I would support 20 years of appeals for the death penalty once the victims of murderers also get appeals, a lawyer, hearings, a last meal, and a visit with a preacher before they get stabbed to death over robbing $20.

Justice demands that those who murder another human must in turn have their own blood shed. The fact Christians aren’t to be executioners is as irrelevant as the fact Christians shouldn’t sit on juries, run for President, or be military officers.

[HondurasKeiser]

The intent of capital punishment is to kill, as it is in war, but in neither cacse is it gratuitous, that is, it is part of a strategy to achieve a higher purpose. Maybe it is semantics, but executions are a civilized society's way of expressing its revulsion at the calloused disrespect for life represented by murder.

I'm having a hard time working this out in my head but your post made me think of the following. Is this expression of revulsion and exaction of justice, imperfect and worldly as it is, the best and perhaps only method that secular societies have for combating deeply inhuman or destructive impulses? As Josh points out, an appeal to or a satisfaction of, the demands of justice? Do societies blithely ignore those demands of justice at their peril? Is the same impulse to demand justice (though this time in a cosmic sense) what put Jesus on the cross? And his utter innocence is what then allows even a murderer on death row a cosmic reconciliation with God even though a society still may be entirely justified in executing him in its appeal to justice?

I am asking silly, elementary questions I know - it's just that Gene's post got me thinking and I wanted to get my thoughts down before they flew out of my head.

[Dan Z]

The intent of capital punishment is to kill, as it is in war, but in neither cacse is it gratuitous, that is, it is part of a strategy to achieve a higher purpose. Maybe it is semantics, but executions are a civilized society's way of expressing its revulsion at the calloused disrespect for life represented by murder.

I'm having a hard time working this out in my head but your post made me think of the following. Is this expression of revulsion and exaction of justice, imperfect and worldly as it is, the best and perhaps only method that secular societies have for combating deeply inhuman or destructive impulses? As Josh points out, an appeal to or a satisfaction of, the demands of justice? Do societies blithely ignore those demands of justice at their peril? Is the same impulse to demand justice (though this time in a cosmic sense) what put Jesus on the cross? And his utter innocence is what then allows even a murderer on death row a cosmic reconciliation with God even though a society still may be entirely justified in executing him in its appeal to justice?

I am asking silly, elementary questions I know - it's just that Gene's post got me thinking and I wanted to get my thoughts down before they flew out of my head.

A few quick thoughts come to mind:

1) First, It sounds like you fellows are presupposing a functional and "just" government with the power to execute "justly" and with due process. Maybe America rises to that standard (although not consistently as Ken has pointed out). However, I wonder if your contentment with executions extends to all governments, caliphates, dictatorships, juntas, etc?

2) Sometimes this sounds a bit like the discussion about owning a gun, with a false dichotomy set up that says either you kill the perp or he kills you and your family - thus deadly force is the only alternative. It presupposes there are no other non-violent (or less violent) possibilities in between. Even if the state and society work out of an "eye for eye" paradigm of justice, shouldn't we who are schooled in the ways of Jesus see other possibilities in light of our teacher's higher ethics? Does being a peacemaker come into play here?

3) And that's really my biggest struggle personally with the whole thing. I have no issue conceding the state will do what it sees fit in its carnal context, but as a Christian who has glimpsed the beautiful and restorative ethics of Jesus, and as one who is called to bear witness to His better way, how can I lend even passive support for something he teaches against? And doesn't that support undercut our witness (and perhaps exposes our lack of belief in the redemptive power of non-resistant love)? By the way, I come out at the same place regarding war - while I concede that war is an inevitable function of the world's fallen present context, as one taught to love my enemies, I cannot lend my voice of support for warfare and other types of polite violence.

[Josh]

Do you support police or sheriffs being able to use deadly force?

I really can’t understand this mindset. In Haiti, the government can’t control violence anymore. So armed gangs are controlling the roads and running half the country.

How is this something a follower of Jesus should support?

[Josh]

A few quick thoughts come to mind:

1) First, It sounds like you fellows are presupposing a functional and "just" government with the power to execute "justly" and with due process. Maybe America rises to that standard (although not consistently as Ken has pointed out). However, I wonder if your contentment with executions extends to all governments, caliphates, dictatorships, juntas, etc?

I don’t support executing people who aren’t guilty.

But how exactly do you support incarceration for life, etc. if you think the government can’t adjudicate justly?

More importantly, this cuts across if we should support the government at all. Should we let the government force us to get injected with new vaccines? Why should we trust them about that if we can’t trust the justice system?

2) Sometimes this sounds a bit like the discussion about owning a gun, with a false dichotomy set up that says either you kill the perp or he kills you and your family - thus deadly force is the only alternative. It presupposes there are no other non-violent (or less violent) possibilities in between. Even if the state and society work out of an "eye for eye" paradigm of justice, shouldn't we who are schooled in the ways of Jesus see other possibilities in light of our teacher's higher ethics? Does being a peacemaker come into play here?

Yes, but violent sociopaths exist. If they aren’t restrained, they will run around killing people.

Executions are pretty rare. Virtually every other avenue is tried and exhausted first.

Being a “peacemaker” means I don’t think a community should be subject to violent murders and rapists terrorising them.

3) And that's really my biggest struggle personally with the whole thing. I have no issue conceding the state will do what it sees fit in its carnal context, but as a Christian who has glimpsed the beautiful and restorative ethics of Jesus, and as one who is called to bear witness to His better way, how can I lend even passive support for something he teaches against? And doesn't that support undercut our witness (and perhaps exposes our lack of belief in the redemptive power of non-resistant love)? By the way, I come out at the same place regarding war - while I concede that war is an inevitable function of the world's fallen present context, as one taught to love my enemies, I cannot lend my voice of support for warfare and other types of polite violence.

Jesus never advocated for policy or told the government to quit conducting executions; rather he told specific individuals to repent and follow him.

[temporal1]

HK, you hit some buttons. ^^
(i’m posting before reading others’ response.)

The intent of capital punishment is to kill, as it is in war, but in neither cacse is it gratuitous, that is, it is part of a strategy to achieve a higher purpose. Maybe it is semantics, but executions are a civilized society's way of expressing its revulsion at the calloused disrespect for life represented by murder.

I'm having a hard time working this out in my head but your post made me think of the following.
Is this expression of revulsion and exaction of justice, imperfect and worldly as it is, the best and perhaps only method that secular societies have for combating deeply inhuman or destructive impulses?
As Josh points out, an appeal to or a satisfaction of, the demands of justice?
Do societies blithely ignore those demands of justice at their peril?
Is the same impulse to demand justice (though this time in a cosmic sense) what put Jesus on the cross?
And his utter innocence is what then allows even a murderer on death row a cosmic reconciliation with God even though a society still may be entirely justified in executing him in its appeal to justice?

I am asking silly, elementary questions I know - it's just that Gene's post got me thinking and I wanted to get my thoughts down before they flew out of my head.

only speaking for myself .. in the U.S. ..

Gene:
.. That there are so few executions
speaks to the point that our judicial system is not fostering a culture of death by over enthusiastic use of the penalty, ..

i see no “blithely” in the U.S. legal system, esp in regard to the death penalty, which is acted upon so rarely, it could be considered non-existent. the low percentages of actual executions, if not for souls involved, on any other matter, would be considered a non-issue.

to repeat, Jesus freely offers eternal salvation, not pardon from earthly gov-mandated execution.

i believe many who are avidly against the death penalty, simultaneously are against crowded prisons.
presently, i’m surprised anyone is incarcerated for anything. i’m no longer surprised at convicted felons being released back into society. one thing leads to another.

i’ve warned my family, be careful where ever you are, do not expect anyone to help you if you get into trouble, not even police.
some may take pics and laugh, expect it. in January, a cousin’s daughter was hit+killed, after getting off a city bus, the driver was at the scene, no ticket, no breath test, nothing, she was allowed to drive away in her own car. no mention of vehicular manslaughter, or other charge. her name was not published in local news reports. this is no longer unheard of in U.S. states.

As a matter of fact, imprisonment often involves rape, beatings, robbery, racial discrimination for any ethnicity, and other kinds of abuse.

i believe Joy.
i also believe imprisonment may improve some lives, and, death penalty or not, lives may be LENGTHENED by imprisonment.
many of these (mostly guys) might be added to homicide statistics at an early age. prison provides shelter, food, medical.
the streets offer violence. the death penalty process is LENGTHY and expensive. a man executed at age 45, might not have lived to 25 on the streets. U.S. prisons may be the “best goal” many can dream of. life outside can be harsh, and deadly.

it is bedrock Christianity to search for “the 1 missing sheep” for salvation. very important.
but secular lawyers and politicians shamelessly abuse Christian tenets for power+profits. “this is a test.” life on earth is a test.

[temporal1]

Do you support police or sheriffs being able to use deadly force?

I really can’t understand this mindset.

In Haiti, the government can’t control violence anymore.
So armed gangs are controlling the roads and running half the country.

How is this something a follower of Jesus should support?

i’m pretty sure the U.S. is further down this trail than any of us can stomach admitting.
i esp can’t believe S.A. criminal cartels “respect” U.S. borders, and stay south. that doesn’t add up.

i believe they are present throughout U.S. gov., and Wall Street, all levels, including D.C.
how could they resist??!

foreign criminals both salivate and laugh at the U.S. “legal system.” it’s a fun game. the odds are in your favor. for those with nothing to lose, why not? at worst, they might be deported. being in U.S. prison might be a life goal for others.

[temporal1]

DanZ:
3) And that's really my biggest struggle personally with the whole thing. I have no issue conceding the state will do what it sees fit in its carnal context, but as a Christian who has glimpsed the beautiful and restorative ethics of Jesus, and as one who is called to bear witness to His better way, how can I lend even passive support for something he teaches against? And doesn't that support undercut our witness (and perhaps exposes our lack of belief in the redemptive power of non-resistant love)? By the way, I come out at the same place regarding war - while I concede that war is an inevitable function of the world's fallen present context, as one taught to love my enemies, I cannot lend my voice of support for warfare and other types of polite violence.

For me, resisting dog whistles of organized political blocs is key. Not easy! But central.
This is how many Christians are scooped-up in ways probably not intended.