Why I Cannot Support Death Penalty

[Josh]

Dan Z,

How far does this belief system extend?

An obvious problem non-resistant and pacifist Anabaptists have had is refusing to turn over sexual abusers to the authorities (which I think is entirely biblical to do).

The state’s punishments should not be our business. Our business is definitely to inform the ungodly or those tempted to be that engaging in gross sin means being turned over to “Satan, for the destruction of his flesh”.

[silentreader]

Whatever my view of my ecclesiastical overlords, or their view of me, Dan is clearly wrong on this one, an articulation of opinion offered in good humor. In order to oppose capital punishment as public policy, consistency demands opposition to all violence by the state where the innocent may be inadvertently harmed, which would largely place warfare beyond the pale, and would cast great doubt on the probity of law enforcement. The honorable gentleman makes the common error of mixing affairs of church and state, something ostensibly settled about 500 years ago, but a temptation nearly irresistible to those who dabble in the political realm or comment on public issues. Separation of church and state works when both parties respect the other's domain.

Hi brother Gene. Thanks for your thoughtful response. I'm always glad when you emerge from the shadows, now and then, to offer your perspective.

The bottom line for me; I'm pragmatic enough to grant any state an allowance to operate outside of the ethics of Christ, because they are functioning in the worldly realm (I think that's what Paul is doing in Romans 13). They don't know any better, and I don't expect more of them. I accept the fact that they will use carnal means to keep order in a carnal context...but I can't, in good conscience, give them an endorsement to violate the teachings of Christ, especially knowing that, according to scripture, they will ultimately be in conflict with the end-game of Jesus (I Cor. 15:24-28).

The Kingdom of Jesus is coming, as he prayed, "on Earth and in Heaven" - and it advances in power and scope as we disciples give ourselves to radically obey "everything that he commanded us." He turned conventional wisdom like "an eye for an eye" and "love your neighbor, hate your enemy" on its head. If we really believe that the love-driven cause of Jesus will change the world, and if we believe that we are modeling that reality as salt and light, then we ought not to undercut our own witness by at the same time affirming state-sponsored killing - even pragmatically.

(P.S. - CMC's decision to drop "Mennonite" from its name bothers me as well.)

It seems to all boil down to what degree you make allowance for "God's servant for your good" to "bear the sword"... "as the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer." (Scripture quotes from ESV)

[Dan Z]

Dan Z,

How far does this belief system extend?

An obvious problem non-resistant and pacifist Anabaptists have had is refusing to turn over sexual abusers to the authorities (which I think is entirely biblical to do).

The state’s punishments should not be our business. Our business is definitely to inform the ungodly or those tempted to be that engaging in gross sin means being turned over to “Satan, for the destruction of his flesh”.

Good point. While grace and forgiveness anchor much of Jesus's teachings, I don't think the ethics of Christ preclude punishment altogether, or consequence for one's actions. Jesus tells us "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." Paul clearly points this out in Romans 13, as well. Like I said earlier, imprisonment for criminal activity is not necessarily unjust or unloving.

[temporal1]

In order to oppose capital punishment as public policy, consistency demands opposition to all violence by the state where the innocent may be inadvertently harmed, which would largely place warfare beyond the pale, and would cast great doubt on the probity of law enforcement. The honorable gentleman makes the common error of mixing affairs of church and state, something ostensibly settled about 500 years ago, but a temptation nearly irresistible to those who dabble in the political realm or comment on public issues. Separation of church and state works when both parties respect the other's domain.

I see them as two different tracks. Law Enforcement purpose is to "serve and protect." It is there to bring order and to help be the enforcement arm of the justice system. It's purpose is not to kill or harm. This does happen, and sometimes too often, but that is not the purpose. Governments have to use the sword. I would not serve as a Police officer, but glad some do.

The role of executions is to kill. That is the purpose. It is the last act of the justice system. It is final. There are no appeals. There is no longer time for repentance. There are so many things that kill people must a society add to it by executing? There have been multiple death row inmates who have been finally found innocent by advances in DNA and other technology. I would want to give all the time in the world for this to happen for all.

If Taliban looping of the heads of Christians is wrong, then the US executing those it sees as guilty is wrong also. It is the same practice. Both feel justified. Both are following their law.

i cannot get past the huge disparity of attention dedicated to this matter.
Page 1, this thread:

.. Recap (approx annual) execution numbers:
1) 17 convicted multiple felons
2) 300,000 without jury or judge
3) 888,000 innocent+defenseless ..

There can be no other conclusion that PROFITS (esp of godless defense attorneys) and POLITICS drive the public debate.
Christians are easily seduced by words. Lawyers+politicians exploit this fact to-the-max.

Defense lawyers may be the biggest “scalpers” in the U.S.
They promise to “say anything” - FOR A HIGH PRICE. Desperate people are vulnerable to scalpers. They all do desperate things.
The U.S. legal system is hamstrung because some lawyers profit - by “saying anything” in clever professional legal language.

Another example of “minority rules.”
Laws are enacted to protect perpetrators, not victims. Victims do not pay as much in legal fees. It really is grisly. $$$$

As much as i HATE the death penalty, i could not be present, i also hate being used for political leveraging.
The approx numbers of ANNUAL executions, ^^ the vast majority without any grace, mercy, representation, at all,
tell me God Jesus is needed, i am overwhelmed by real life.

Political blocs have no soul, no conscience. Decisions can be very hard for Christians. (That’s no accident.)

[Josh]

Imprisonments implies deadly force. Prison guards aren’t exactly unarmed.

[Joy]

As a matter of fact, imprisonment often involves rape, beatings, robbery, racial discrimination for any ethnicity, and other kinds of abuse.

[Robert]

Imprisonments implies deadly force. Prison guards aren’t exactly unarmed.

Again, intent matters. Their intent is to detain and confine, not kill. The death penalty intent is to kill.

As a matter of fact, imprisonment often involves rape, beatings, robbery, racial discrimination for any ethnicity, and other kinds of abuse.

This is why prison is a place we all should want to avoid. Yet, even these things happen in the general populace and it does not stop people from finding faith in Jesus.

[nett]

Imprisonments implies deadly force. Prison guards aren’t exactly unarmed.

Again, intent matters. Their intent is to detain and confine, not kill. The death penalty intent is to kill.

As a matter of fact, imprisonment often involves rape, beatings, robbery, racial discrimination for any ethnicity, and other kinds of abuse.

This is why prison is a place we all should want to avoid. Yet, even these things happen in the general populace and it does not stop people from finding faith in Jesus.

I can find no Biblical support for that view of the state's obligation to punish with deadly force.

I don't believe God needs us worrying about whether he has enough time to reach death row inmates. I believe the looming knowledge of your own demise is a powerful motivator to get right with God, and that l leads to a lot of death row conversions.

I think the general mindset of extending life at all costs is not a Christian one. Western culture has become unable to accept death in a healthy way, and that includes death as a punishment for evil.

Natual justice certainly demands a life to be taken in many cases, that is inescapable. It's just not our job as Christians to adjudicate that or carry it out.

[Gene]

The intent of capital punishment is to kill, as it is in war, but in neither case is it gratuitous, that is, it is part of a strategy to achieve a higher purpose. Maybe it is semantics, but executions are a civilized society's way of expressing its revulsion at the calloused disrespect for life represented by murder. The expense of securing a death sentence is largely a function of the legal hurdles placed in the path of prosecutors and the appeals afforded defendants which are most often paid for by public funds. That there are so few executions speaks to the point that our judicial system is not fostering a culture of death by over enthusiastic use of the penalty, but rather by failure to defend the populace against a murderous criminal element.

[steve-in-kville]

I'm not active in this thread, yet I am intrigued by the discussion here. If its wrong to take a life, how would you interpret this?:

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.