Natural (God given) immunity is superior

[Ken]

This is my biggest concern in all of these discussions. It is so uncharacteristic of Mennonites to be so wrapped up in conspiracy theories and obscure testing protocols as wild theological speculations that so many are completely lacking in compassion and unwilling to make little sacrifices for their neighbors. Someone here even thinks wearing a mask is somehow a satanic ritual or something of that sort. That sort of thing does not come out of a heart full of Love for neighbor. Followers of Jesus should be humble about this, accept the fact that scientists and doctors, not out of greed or hidden satanic purposes, are using their God given talents to protect and heal people from this awful disease. I see better examples of that compassion and humility coming from churches and even secular sources that show me that the Kingdom of God is breaking in where it is being rejected by all too many of my Mennonite brothers and sisters. I read on this forum very little about how we can respond to this crisis with all those characteristics of Mennonitism that used to be the hallmark of our faith - humility, compassion, sacrifice, faith. Let's restore that in our lives and hearts.

People are dying, people are grieving, people will die still, often unnecessarily given the proven success of vaccines and treatments in use. Do not contribute to that death toll and grief. Have a heart for those who are sick and for those who grieve. Have the heart of Jesus.

Well not the Anabaptists in Holmes County- they have a 16% vaccination rate according to the paper I picked up yesterday. We we're at the Haiti benefit auction Friday and Saturday, Brad gets a couple thousand and a Baptist were not one of them wearing a mask or worrying about social distancing. I've talked to several that have made it through the covid experience some worse than others but they knew where to get treatment and they got treatment. Some have passed like what happens with pneumonia and flu and other things that people pass away from every year. Holmes county is notorious for having health stores that carry tons of products to prevent people from getting sick because they don't carry health insurance so they have become quite good at knowing how to treat themselves or where to get what they need. So the anabaptist that we've been exposed to in Holmes county handle life completely different which is why we went there every week during the pandemic, it was like going from hell to heaven. Come to think about it it was the Alabama Baptist people we met that started me thinking about more natural path routes to take

Anabaptists are not the only residents in Holmes Country. There have been a lot of deaths here, too. Where the Amish fall in this context is that they tend to be fatalistic. All sorts of accidents, even cases where carelessness was clearly involved, are dismissed as "the will of God", saying "It was just their time". My own father-in-law died due to complications caused by Covid, and a number of members of our congregation have lost family members as well. Others who lived through it are permanently negatively affected by it, with loss of lung capacity, especially.
Unfortunately the conspiracy theories also tend to run rampant in areas where there is a low educational level, creating a reluctance to seek reputable medical assistance. And I'm not picking on Amish & conservative Mennonites, either. Holmes County is a part of greater Appalachia, and many non-anabaptists are typical of the common characterization of that region. Medical Quackery is one on them.

Covid ICU hospitalizations in Holmes County have risen from one ICU hospitalization the week of July 20-26 to an average of 63 for the week of August 20-26. They haven't yet reported for last week so we don't yet know if it has peaked and declining, or continuing to rise. But it looks like the delta variant is pushing its way into Holmes County as well. They also have a very high positive test rate of 15% which suggests that there is a lot more Covid circulating within the community than is being detected through testing. A lot of sick people are probably just not bothering to go in and get tested compared to other communities. To date Holmes County has reported 103 Covid deaths for a population of 44,000 people. Which is a death rate of 0.234% of the population. By contrast the national Covid death rate is 0.197% so Holmes County is above the national average for Covid deaths, but not dramatically so. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... cases.html

My own take is that a rural community like Holmes, with an exceptionally low vaccination rate, is poised for a very bad surge of cases due to the delta variant. I guess we shall soon see so there's no need to speculate.

[JohnHurt]

Get real Ken. That is not "priests aborting children". That's a religious ceremony, where they mix together a harmless but cursed concoction that will expose infidelity.

And how does God expose the infidelity? Does a scarlet letter appear on the front of the woman's dress in the spirit of Nathaniel Hawthorne? Or does he choose some other method?

It is believed that the passage refers to a stillbirth or a miscarriage. What's your point? God is sovereign, we are not.

A better example from the Law about abortion is Exodus 21:22-25, where if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, and the baby and woman are not harmed, then the man is to be punished as the judges determine. But if the baby or mother dies then the man is to be put to death; if the baby or mother are injured, then the man is to receive the same outcome.

You can say this law no longer applies because it does not suit you, but Christ said that the law, even the smallest part of the law, would stand until heaven and earth pass, and that only righteous who keep the Law will enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20

Christ said that instead of hurting a child, it is better for us to have a millstone around our neck and drown in the sea. Matt 18:6 And that in heaven, the angels that watch over the children are always before the Father. Matthew 18:10 Christ takes the welfare of children very seriously.

The murder of children in the womb is not breaking one of the "least commandments" that would make us the "least in the kingdom", (Matt 5:19) rather it is just as important as the sin of Cain when he slew Abel. Abortion has no place with the non-violent.

Any benefit from the practice of abortion should be avoided, as it makes us partakers in this same crime, much like "accessory after the fact."

And the reason they use fetal tissues in medicines is to make us accept abortion as "necessary", since many of us are being required to use these products made from an aborted child.

And just like the blood of Abel "cries out from the ground" (Genesis 4:10) - then where does the tissue of this dead child cry from - after it has been injected into our bodies? It cries out to God from inside our physical bodies. It makes us stink in the eyes of our God. That is why I won't do it. And that could be the reason they put this abomination in these vaccines - to make us unholy.

I won't condemn anyone, and you are welcome to disagree.

But if you are facing a forced vaccination to keep your job, then this is a very powerful argument for a religious exemption.

Hear what Peter said about the need for us to keep ourselves holy before God:

1 Peter 1:(15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

(16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Peter is quoting Leviticus 11:44 - read Leviticus 11 to help us understand how our bodies need to be kept clean so that we can be holy before the Lord.

Yes, keeping our bodies pure and holy is in the "New Testament" - just ask Peter.

[Soloist]

Ken, please keep your approval of infanticide out of this discussion. I agree that abortion is murder, I do not endorse it. I am a New Testament follower of Jesus, not one to justify any taking of life from the Old law.

Neither do endorse the stream of lies about using baby parts in pharmaceuticals and the self righteous pharisaical pomposity and heartlessness of those who advocate death and breath damnation to those whose lives are being save by a vaccine that was tested using material from a child aborted long ago. That child died unnecessarily, but she did not die in vain.

Matthew 7:1-2 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Matthew 5:10-12Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

I've posted the scientific articles regarding the use of fetal cells and tissue in modern medicine before, so I don't feel like I need to do so again. I repeat that I do not judge you or others for your choice to take the vaccine. I hope that you can be a light to these doctors and nurses that are caring for you and that perhaps if God has mercy, grant you a lengthening of your time.

[Bootstrap]

Well not the Anabaptists in Holmes County- they have a 16% vaccination rate according to the paper I picked up yesterday. We we're at the Haiti benefit auction Friday and Saturday, Brad gets a couple thousand and a Baptist were not one of them wearing a mask or worrying about social distancing.

Let's take a look at the statistics for Holmes County. It sure looks like vaccinated people are doing better than unvaccinated people there.

2,937 Covid-19 cases. 2,874 of these were unvaccinated, 63 were vaccinated.
297 hospitalized Covid-19 patients. 289 were unvaccinated, 8 vaccinated.
103 deaths. 103 were unvaccinated, 0 vaccinated.

[Bootstrap]

I've posted the scientific articles regarding the use of fetal cells and tissue in modern medicine before, so I don't feel like I need to do so again. I repeat that I do not judge you or others for your choice to take the vaccine. I hope that you can be a light to these doctors and nurses that are caring for you and that perhaps if God has mercy, grant you a lengthening of your time.

You stand out as a person who gives straight answers, honestly deals with data and with challenges to your views, and responds respectfully. Now if the rest of us can follow that example ...

[Bootstrap]

Could we focus this thread on the topic in the title?

I think there's a lot of "kitchen sinking" here, throwing everything but the kitchen sink at each other. Staying on the topic is one way of calming the conversation down.

Is natural immunity superior? I assume that means medically superior. So far, I'm not convinced that it is. I think that's separate from the ethical question. You could imagine a vaccine that was 100% safe and effective but required killing your mother. I would never take it, but I would have to be honest about the evidence. Isn't this thread about the medical evidence?

[Wayne in Maine]

I repeat that I do not judge you or others for your choice to take the vaccine. I hope that you can be a light to these doctors and nurses that are caring for you and that perhaps if God has mercy, grant you a lengthening of your time.

Thank you brother, that means a lot to me. I want peace with all men, even those with whom I engage in iron sharpening iron!

[Ken]

And just like the blood of Abel "cries out from the ground" (Genesis 4:10) - then where does the tissue of this dead child cry from - after it has been injected into our bodies? It cries out to God from inside our physical bodies. It makes us stink in the eyes of our God. That is why I won't do it. And that could be the reason they put this abomination in these vaccines - to make us unholy.

I won't condemn anyone, and you are welcome to disagree.

But if you are facing a forced vaccination to keep your job, then this is a very powerful argument for a religious exemption.

If a nurse chooses not to get vaccinated, and then carries a Covid infection into a hospital ward where vulnerable immuno-compromised patients are being treated. Or even just a retirement home with elderly patients that have weak immune systems. And people die as a result. Should that nurse be prosecuted for negligent manslaughter?

This is not a far-fetched scenario. Recently my wife who is a physician had a telemedicine consult with an unvaccinated nursing home nurse who was one of her patients. She was unvaccinated and claiming a religious exemption because my wife had previously refused to give her a medical exemption. The nurse was reporting vague mild symptoms that potentially could have been Covid but also could have been an ordinary cold or flu. My wife instructed her that under no circumstances should she go to to work. That she needed to get Covid tested and self-isolate until cleared of the disease. The nurse ignored her instructions and went to work anyway. Several days later her symptoms worsened and she tested positive for Covid. The outbreak she caused at the nursing home, which was contact-traced directly back to her, resulted in the deaths of 3 residents and the hospitalization of several more.

Afterwards this same nurse came to my wife in tears and remorse, begging her to edit her medical record to remove the note stating that my wife had advised her that she was to self-isolate and not return to work until cleared of Covid. My wife refused and the nurse was subsequently fired for failing to adhere to hospital Covid protocol.

If you are a rural hermit then your personal choice to vaccinate or not vaccinate affects no one else. If you are a health-care professional then it has potentially life-threatening consequences for others in your care.

[Ken]

Could we focus this thread on the topic in the title?

I think there's a lot of "kitchen sinking" here, throwing everything but the kitchen sink at each other. Staying on the topic is one way of calming the conversation down.

Is natural immunity superior? I assume that means medically superior. So far, I'm not convinced that it is. I think that's separate from the ethical question. You could imagine a vaccine that was 100% safe and effective but required killing your mother. I would never take it, but I would have to be honest about the evidence. Isn't this thread about the medical evidence?

The simple answer to that question is that vaccination combined with natural immunity is the most superior form of protection. No one here seems to want to talk about that, but vaccines and natural immunity are not mutually exclusive, they are complementary. Every study which has looked at the subject has found that people who previously had Covid get an immunity boost by following-up with the vaccine.

For example, here is a recent one published 3 weeks ago: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/ ... mm7032e1_w

In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus. These data further indicate that COVID-19 vaccines offer better protection than natural immunity alone and that vaccines, even after prior infection, help prevent reinfections.

“If you have had COVID-19 before, please still get vaccinated,” said CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky. “This study shows you are twice as likely to get infected again if you are unvaccinated. Getting the vaccine is the best way to protect yourself and others around you, especially as the more contagious Delta variant spreads around the country.”

The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.

[Bootstrap]

The simple answer to that question is that vaccination combined with natural immunity is the most superior form of protection. No one here seems to want to talk about that, but vaccines and natural immunity are not mutually exclusive, they are complementary. Every study which has looked at the subject has found that people who previously had Covid get an immunity boost by following-up with the vaccine.

I think that's accurate. Studies vary significantly on how large that boost is for people who have previously had Covid-19, but they all say there is a boost. My take: it's still too early to be sure how large the boost is, but it's clearly real.

If you haven't had Covid-19 yet, you don't have that natural immunity, and the odds of hospitalization, death, or long-term effects are high enough that it is a very risky way to get immunity. If you have had Covid-19, it's worth a test to be sure it wasn't a cold or something. Regardless, if you do not have a moral objection to the vaccine, it will still improve your odds.

For example, here is a recent one published 3 weeks ago: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/ ... mm7032e1_w

In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus. These data further indicate that COVID-19 vaccines offer better protection than natural immunity alone and that vaccines, even after prior infection, help prevent reinfections.

“If you have had COVID-19 before, please still get vaccinated,” said CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky. “This study shows you are twice as likely to get infected again if you are unvaccinated. Getting the vaccine is the best way to protect yourself and others around you, especially as the more contagious Delta variant spreads around the country.”

The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.

And from what I can find, people who have had both the vaccine and Covid-19 have the highest immunity of all.