Natural (God given) immunity is superior

[Josh]

Since Christianity started, Christians have been notorious for taking a stance against infanticide, which was used basically as a form of “birth control” in Roman times. This was a powerful, positive witness.

Christians don’t do much for the world when they join the world in worshipping the false god of Moloch.

[mennonitemom1]

Even with a "test", they are still trying to benefit from the murder of a child. And so are we.

Rev 21:(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We take these injections because we are fearful of dying, so yes we are "fearful"...
We don't believe that God can really heal us, and so yes we are unbelieving...
And the unclean things we put inside us - they make us stink in God's eyes, so yes, we are "abominable"...
Like the parts of children that we murder and grind up to put into our injections or test our medicines, so yes, we are murderers and profit from murder...
And sorcery is "pharamkeus", or the mixing of drugs that we take, so yes, we really are sorcerers, or use the products of sorcery...
And man's "Science" and man's "Medicine" are the idols of this age that have replaced God Providence, so yes, we are idolaters too...
And then we lie to ourselves and others and say this medicine really works, when it doesn't work, so I guess you could say we are all liars too..

Well, at least we are not whoremongers. Or some of us, anyway.

But 7 wrong answers, and one "maybe", that is not really a passing grade.

Would you advocate for no use of modern medicine?

Does "modern medicine" really have to use dead babies for their "treatments"? Or is there another reason they do this?

They don’t need to do this….

[Soloist]

to clarify my post, I'm making an analogy to how the rest of Christianity looks at us and non-resistance. They think its stupid.
I am not attempting to imply any salvation aspect to my analogy in regard to someone taking a vaccine thinking they are showing love to their neighbor. I for one cannot use it and be saved but I do not claim this to be a universal doctrine of salvation.
I support taking precautions for the disease as I would for other diseases as well.

[JohnHurt]

John, do you really believe that those believers in Christ, some here on this forum, who have taken shots, are on their way to hell ? This is a pretty strong way to use scripture that seems to indicate you do.

You often refer to the OT and there are some things that God required in the OT that took the life of children. For instance, Joshua was told by God to slaughter women and children in Jericho but one of the commandments was 'Thou shalt not murder'. Will Joshua go to hell for this ? If not, when a Christian believes they are taking these shots to save lives, not just their own, can you say you know how God is viewing this ?

What would you say to those who have taken these shots and believe they are saving both their own life and lives of others and do not see this as murder ? Is it too late to repent ? Can you say assuredly that God views this in the same way you do ?

Christ's message was that we should "Repent, for the Kingdom is Here!" Inside Repentance, you will Grace, for there is no need for a man to repent if there is no grace. Yet the churches teach grace with no need to repent, or that we should stop following the practice of sin.

We have all sinned and fallen short. Sin is a transgression of the law. 1 John 3;4.

But we don't all repent when we discover ourselves in sin. We rely on grace.

Is it a sin to murder a child in the womb?

Murder to me involves the born not the unborn. I am not for abortion after 6 weeks but I draw the line on murder different than some others do.

Is it a sin to benefit in some way from the murder of a child in the womb?

Again I don't regard this as murder.

What do you think?

That is why this question is under "General Theology".

My second question for you is...

If every Christian rejected every product (cosmetics, vaccines, etc.) that has been produced with products made from the bodies of children who were murdered in the womb, what would happen?

I suspect the world would go on just as it would if every Christian quit telling lies. However, what might happen if every Christian began loving their neighbour as they love themselves ? I believe our main calling as Christians is with regard to the eternal life of the born that they become born again. My belief is God has His place for the unborn.

Jeremiah 1:(5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,

Luke 1:15 - and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

It looks like the Bible recognizes that life begins at conception, or even before you are formed in the belly.

I can't find an exception that allows you to murder children in the womb before "6 weeks" in the Bible.

Is a child in the womb human? Yes.
Is a child in womb alive? Yes.
If it is human, and alive, then it is a human life.

And so "Thou shall not kill" is the principle that is being violated.

James 2:(11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

If we support abortion and we kill children in the womb, then why do we say we are "non-violent" and reject going to war and killing enemy soldiers?
The only difference in killing a child in the womb or killing an enemy soldier is that the child is completely innocent. So our sin in shedding innocent blood is greater than our supposed "non-violence". Deuteronomy 19:10, Matt 27:4 I think we should be consistent.

Or as James said, are we really that "holy" if we "don't commit adultery", but we continue to engage in the murder of children? No, they are both bad.

I won't benefit from the murder of a child. So I won't take a vaccine or mRNA gene therapy that uses the DNA of a dead child.

Thank you, it has been interesting hearing your point of view.

John

[Ken]

Jeremiah 1:(5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,

Luke 1:15 - and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

It looks like the Bible recognizes that life begins at conception, or even before you are formed in the belly.

I can't find an exception that allows you to murder children in the womb before "6 weeks" in the Bible.

Look harder. In Numbers 5:11-31 Gods provide explicit instruction to priests for the aborting of children who were conceived out of wedlock. Which are probably the vast majority of abortions in this country.

[Wayne in Maine]

Jeremiah 1:(5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,

Luke 1:15 - and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

It looks like the Bible recognizes that life begins at conception, or even before you are formed in the belly.

I can't find an exception that allows you to murder children in the womb before "6 weeks" in the Bible.

Look harder. In Numbers 5:11-31 Gods provide explicit instruction to priests for the aborting of children who were conceived out of wedlock. Which are probably the vast majority of abortions in this country.

Ken, please keep your approval of infanticide out of this discussion. I agree that abortion is murder, I do not endorse it. I am a New Testament follower of Jesus, not one to justify any taking of life from the Old law.

Neither do endorse the stream of lies about using baby parts in pharmaceuticals and the self righteous pharisaical pomposity and heartlessness of those who advocate death and breath damnation to those whose lives are being save by a vaccine that was tested using material from a child aborted long ago. That child died unnecessarily, but she did not die in vain.

[Sudsy]

John, I can give my own interpretations of the texts you gave supporting your views but I don't think it gets us anywhere. Live by your convictions. I will also and we will both someday be judged by God for our beliefs. If you do this to warn me, then I am warned. One thing we shouldn't do is to call each other a fool ('raca') as this is murder according to Jesus. And thankyou for sharing your views with your supporting scriptures.

[Valerie]

For those who have died of Covid, was "God given" death superior to vaccines? If a vaccine had the death rate associated with just taking your chances, it would never be approved.

This is my biggest concern in all of these discussions. It is so uncharacteristic of Mennonites to be so wrapped up in conspiracy theories and obscure testing protocols as wild theological speculations that so many are completely lacking in compassion and unwilling to make little sacrifices for their neighbors. Someone here even thinks wearing a mask is somehow a satanic ritual or something of that sort. That sort of thing does not come out of a heart full of Love for neighbor. Followers of Jesus should be humble about this, accept the fact that scientists and doctors, not out of greed or hidden satanic purposes, are using their God given talents to protect and heal people from this awful disease. I see better examples of that compassion and humility coming from churches and even secular sources that show me that the Kingdom of God is breaking in where it is being rejected by all too many of my Mennonite brothers and sisters. I read on this forum very little about how we can respond to this crisis with all those characteristics of Mennonitism that used to be the hallmark of our faith - humility, compassion, sacrifice, faith. Let's restore that in our lives and hearts.

People are dying, people are grieving, people will die still, often unnecessarily given the proven success of vaccines and treatments in use. Do not contribute to that death toll and grief. Have a heart for those who are sick and for those who grieve. Have the heart of Jesus.

Well not the Anabaptists in Holmes County- they have a 16% vaccination rate according to the paper I picked up yesterday. We we're at the Haiti benefit auction Friday and Saturday, Brad gets a couple thousand and a Baptist were not one of them wearing a mask or worrying about social distancing. I've talked to several that have made it through the covid experience some worse than others but they knew where to get treatment and they got treatment. Some have passed like what happens with pneumonia and flu and other things that people pass away from every year. Holmes county is notorious for having health stores that carry tons of products to prevent people from getting sick because they don't carry health insurance so they have become quite good at knowing how to treat themselves or where to get what they need. So the anabaptist that we've been exposed to in Holmes county handle life completely different which is why we went there every week during the pandemic, it was like going from hell to heaven. Come to think about it it was the Alabama Baptist people we met that started me thinking about more natural path routes to take

[Valerie]

As created, human immunity was perfect. But we are broken by the effects of sin, and are not born with perfect immunity to sickness.
I am one who "natural immunity" is less than average. I catch nearly every cold virus that comes around. I do take vitamins, take precautions, etc., but I rarely make it though a winter season w/o at least a couple of colds. (My wife is typing up her journal for years past, and found a place where she had written that I was down with my 4th cold during that winter.) I've got a bad one right now. Started with a sore throat last Monday. Moved to "classic" cold symptoms yesterday, worse today, preventing me from attending church services this morning. (Fortunately I am no longer a SS teacher - finished the quarter last Sunday. But the man who took over is also not able to be there, because their son has Covid now.) But during the period when every one was wearing masks I didn't have a single cold. (It seems really weird to me now, to refer to this sickness as a 'cold', when it actually has nothing at all to do with cold temperatures. I'm always tempted to use the Portuguese word 'gripe'...)

(But oh that we would strive toward "immunity to sin". That "natural immunity" was also destroyed by sin, but we now have The Way of Escape, and perfect immunity will once again be ours at the time of the transformation, when we become like Jesus, seeing him as he is.)

Neato, my husband used to get sick several times a year and have to take antibiotics. It was terrible he gets sinus infection seasonal allergies colds you name it. He has a suppressed immune system due to his transplant.

You live close to the Berlin resort that has a chiropractor there. That chiropractor sells standard process supplements. We purchased one called Thymex which affects your thymus gland your immune center. I bought four bottles that they had on sale because of the list of things that benefits. It's totally natural, not medicine. My husband says it changed his life. It will be 4 years ago this coming Thanksgiving weekend that we bought that and he has never been sick one time since! With anything!!! Even his seasonal allergies completely disappeared he said it changed his life (physically). May I suggest you pick up one bottle? It recommends taking three a day one with each meal my husband only takes two and he's never caught anything including covid and is such a blessing not to see him suffer with seasonal allergies too anymore. My mom who has asthma was able to put her inhaler away when she started taking it and no more wheezing!

[Ken]

Jeremiah 1:(5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,

Luke 1:15 - and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

It looks like the Bible recognizes that life begins at conception, or even before you are formed in the belly.

I can't find an exception that allows you to murder children in the womb before "6 weeks" in the Bible.

Look harder. In Numbers 5:11-31 Gods provide explicit instruction to priests for the aborting of children who were conceived out of wedlock. Which are probably the vast majority of abortions in this country.

Ken, please keep your approval of infanticide out of this discussion. I agree that abortion is murder, I do not endorse it. I am a New Testament follower of Jesus, not one to justify any taking of life from the Old law.

Neither do endorse the stream of lies about using baby parts in pharmaceuticals and the self righteous pharisaical pomposity and heartlessness of those who advocate death and breath damnation to those whose lives are being save by a vaccine that was tested using material from a child aborted long ago. That child died unnecessarily, but she did not die in vain.

I don't believe or approve of infanticide. I also don't believe, however, that the bible provides any definitive answer as to when the soul enters the body and a collection of living cells becomes a self-aware person. Theologians have been arguing about this topic for millennia. If you are entitled to express your beliefs than so am I. Please don't mischaracterize them. I am willing to say that I don't actually know the answer to that question. Is it at first breath as suggested by some biblical texts? Is it at the point of the "quickening" when fetus begins to kick and move as was general belief of the early church? Is it upon detection of fetal heartbeat (new Texas law)? Or is it upon conception? Something most pro-life folks don't actually believe or they would also advocate equally hard for the prohibition of IVF which kills as many embryos as abortion. Scientifically speaking, life doesn't actually begin. It is an endless cycle in which living cells are constantly replicating and sometimes fusing to exchange and recombine genetic material. At no point in the human life cycle is life actually created or begun from non-living material.

The fact that we don't actually know the answers to these questions is why I am not comfortable using the criminal justice system to enforce one particular religious interpretation. That is far different from saying that I am pro-infanticide. You say you are a New Testament follower of Jesus. But Jesus never once mentions abortion and neither does Paul, despite the fact that abortion was a common practice at that time in the Roman empire and before. And prior to the late 1970s, most protestant churches were either silent on the issue or took a pro-choice stance that was disapproving morally but opposed to criminalization.

I do agree with you and share the opinion that vaccines and the development of immunity to disease (the subject of this thread) has nothing to do with abortion. I'm not the one who keeps dragging abortion into every topic here as a weapon to try to discredit those who disagree with the anti-vax stance taken by many on this forum.