Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

[Josh]

Charter schools often take very troubled students from public schools. Some explictly cater to this. There is a charter school where I live that is set up for pregnant students or students who recently had a baby, with things such as on-site daycare for infants.

No they aren't. The super majority of charter schools get their students if their parents fill out a bunch of paperwork and get them in the lottery. [/quote]

Yes, that's the kind of thing people like guardian ad litems do. Citation: My mother used to be a CASA GAL and would do this exact thing.

Only active involved guardians even begin that process.

What's wrong with that? An actively involved parent/guardian is a good thing.

Further, they do dump students that are tougher on district schools. I lived it. And no my school wasn't a failure. We got the highest score possible an A by the Bloomberg reform data scoring machine. Our score, using the same metric as NYC charters, busted many charters. I was there and lived it personally. And I am not even against charters. There are good ones. I had two good friends who were charter principals. One of a mom and pop charter and one of a big brand, Uncommon Schools Charter. The reason charters can dump students is because they function as a completely independent district. We were then forced to take the students they dumped.

Why are you so unhappy about this? What's wrong with them being an independent school?

Do you think just one public school monopoly should exist?

If you don't like charter schools, you should support vouchers. Do you support vouchers?

Again your simplistic black and white statements regarding discipline are ill nformed. As for discipline, our school, and plenty of others, worked well. We used a restorative approach that actually teaches students rather than a retributive obey or suffer approach.

Lastly, yes, there is solid data that male students get tougher punishments. And no...that isnt acceptable either. More broadly retributive discipline wont work...and won'y get us the adults and culture we want.

I really don't buy into the liberal hogwash that discipline doesn't work and calls for "restorative" methods instead; the end result of that kind of thing is the streets of New York City right now with frequent car chases and people shot in broad daylight. Or San Francisco, where stores are looted in broad daylight and many chain drugstores are closing because shoplifting is so bad. Meanwhile their DA says he's trying to use more "restorative" approach and says "just locking people up in jail for shoplifting doesn't help".

"Restorative approach" sounds nice, but the fact is, a lot of people simply won't respond until they get some good old fashioned discipline. I'll quote the scripture for you:

"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

"Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
Punish them with the rod
and save them from death."

[Soloist]

I really don't buy into the liberal hogwash that discipline doesn't work and calls for "restorative" methods instead; the end result of that kind of thing is the streets of New York City right now with frequent car chases and people shot in broad daylight. Or San Francisco, where stores are looted in broad daylight and many chain drugstores are closing because shoplifting is so bad. Meanwhile their DA says he's trying to use more "restorative" approach and says "just locking people up in jail for shoplifting doesn't help".

"Restorative approach" sounds nice, but the fact is, a lot of people simply won't respond until they get some good old fashioned discipline. I'll quote the scripture for you:

"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

"Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
Punish them with the rod
and save them from death."

Some of these troubled youth have never had a stable home and the only discipline they ever got was harsh and unloving. While I don't think that we should spare discipline from our youth, is there a point in doing it without a loving relationship? What has discipline netted us in terms of prison recidivism?

[Ken]

I have taught in schools with unions here in Washington and in schools without unions in Texas.

There is honestly very little difference in the ways that the schools operate. The main difference is that teachers in WA are better compensated.

So "very little difference" except one costs a lot more?

I'll take the cheaper one, thanks.

Says the person who posted this in the minimum wage thread. (FYI...Starting teacher salaries in Texas come out to about $15-18 per hour considering how many hours a beginning teacher works. They are even lower in some states).

Most people at the bottom end already live paycheck to paycheck, can barely make ends meet, and often are going into debt. I really don't know what the rest of the country expects from them.

If we don't have working people and labour, we don't have a country at all anymore.

and....

Housing prices go up faster than how much I can save from our family budget, and I’m better off than most people. If house prices go up $100,000 a year (which is what they did in the last year here), how can a family making $50,000 a year afford to ever buy a house?

and....

People in occupations making $50,000 a year often can't do their jobs remotely. Being able to do a job remotely is a privilege, and a privilege that usually belongs to the wealthy.

The working class are expected to live hours away from their jobs so they can afford basic housing, and then have to spend lots of their money on commuting costs. In the old days, there were at least safe neighbourhoods closer to jobs in the city. Those are mostly gone. They are priced out, unless they want to be in a very dangerous neighbourhood, and even those are gentrifying quickly and pushing those people out.

and.....

I think the working class should be able to live near jobs that pay them a living wage, enough to afford to own their own home, and still have time to see their families.

An environment like in L.A. where the average apartment is $2,600/mo means most people are going to live in grinding poverty, and can barely afford rent, let alone to own a home or condo. Living near any job would be a luxury, let alone a "highest paying job".

I don't think it's good or healthy for families to have their breadwinner making 1 or 2 hour commutes each way every day.

and....

I don't really see what financial advice I can give to someone who is making, say, $25/hr (that rate includes mandatory overtime) at his job, with 3 kids, who overall is being a much more responsible person than he used to be in the past. There really is no "advice" that will square the circle of how he can translate that into buying a $250,000 house.

Or to use Wade's example, at $47/hr, there's not an easy way to give "advice" that will translate into buying an $800k property.

I don't necessarily think financial aid is the right answer either.

[Szdfan]

Some of these troubled youth have never had a stable home and the only discipline they ever got was harsh and unloving. While I don't think that we should spare discipline from our youth, is there a point in doing it without a loving relationship? What has discipline netted us in terms of prison recidivism?

Many of the students in the district I work for are abused and neglected. Many of them are dealing with trauma. Last May, one of our seniors died on graduation day due to unmanaged diabetes.

It takes a lot of work to build relationships and establish trust with our students. I’ve been advised that during my first year of teaching, one of the reasons why I will have discipline problems is because students are testing whether or not I’m actually sticking around.

[joshuabgood]

Yes, that's the kind of thing people like guardian ad litems do. Citation: My mother used to be a CASA GAL and would do this exact thing...What's wrong with that? An actively involved parent/guardian is a good thing.

Right. I agree. However district school students aren't made exclusively of parents/guardians that have this level of engagement. That is the point. It isn't an "apples to apples" comparison. (Like I said I am not against charter schools.) Further, district schools can't "dump/expel" students/families that don't "pan out" like charters can. And those children don't remain on their denominators. Instead they go to district schools.

Why are you so unhappy about this? What's wrong with them being an independent school?

Do you think just one public school monopoly should exist?

If you don't like charter schools, you should support vouchers. Do you support vouchers?

This reminds me of the "Gish gallop." (And I actually like Duane Gish). You change subjects so fast and make so many assumptions it is hard to keep up. But I'll try to address them all. 1) Nothing is wrong with being an independent school. However, comparing charters and districts doesn't work as I have pointed out. 2)I am against any monopoly. 3) I would idealize a pure voucher system yes...also tied to objective academic quality metrics.

I really don't buy into the liberal hogwash that discipline doesn't work and calls for "restorative" methods instead; the end result of that kind of thing is the streets of New York City right now with frequent car chases and people shot in broad daylight. Or San Francisco, where stores are looted in broad daylight and many chain drugstores are closing because shoplifting is so bad. Meanwhile their DA says he's trying to use more "restorative" approach and says "just locking people up in jail for shoplifting doesn't help".

"Restorative approach" sounds nice, but the fact is, a lot of people simply won't respond until they get some good old fashioned discipline. I'll quote the scripture for you:

"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

"Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
Punish them with the rod
and save them from death."

Again with the simplistic statements. Because of some instances in NYC, which rightly receive press, you make sweeping statements. It's a little like me painting all Christian schools/missions with a broad brush because of Jeriah Mast and Jerry Jr.

Bottom line, you believe in retributive solutions. I don't. Prison doesn't get us the society we want. If it did the USA would all be angelic now since we have prisons galore. I believe in discipleship and the way of Jesus as the tools to being salt and light and building a better future. We should deal with our fellow man as Jesus has deals with us.

"Good old fashioned" discipline has done a lot of harm and produced a lot of broken and scarred people. If it worked, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come. I don't think working with children (or people) would be something I would advise for you.

As for beating kids until morale improves...I don't think that works. And using a Christocentric hermeneutic, I think calls for a thoughtful re-examination of Solomon's teachings.

[Josh]

Some of these troubled youth have never had a stable home and the only discipline they ever got was harsh and unloving. While I don't think that we should spare discipline from our youth, is there a point in doing it without a loving relationship? What has discipline netted us in terms of prison recidivism?

Many of the students in the district I work for are abused and neglected. Many of them are dealing with trauma. Last May, one of our seniors died on graduation day due to unmanaged diabetes.

It takes a lot of work to build relationships and establish trust with our students. I’ve been advised that during my first year of teaching, one of the reasons why I will have discipline problems is because students are testing whether or not I’m actually sticking around.

Basically, any excuse goes to excuse very bad behaviour they eventually results in violent criminal behaviour.

You might as well just skip forward and blame the victims now. “Trauma” and “neglect” and “abuse” aren’t excuses to act poorly and reject proper discipline.

You hinted that consistency is important. It is, which is why discipline disappearing from schools is a bad thing.

[Josh]

Ken, teachers who are inessential workers should strive to get better careers doing something where someone actually wants to pay them more.

I don’t have much respect for government jobs where parents are forced to be “customers” of public schools. Of course, lots of money is spent on public schools, most of it doesn’t go to teachers. But I’m not sure why teachers should be paid more than fast food workers. At least people get a choice in fast food, aren’t forced to use drive thrus if they want to cook at home, and if your order is not filled right, you can ask to have it fixed.

Public school teachers, meanwhile, decided to all walk off their jobs last year and pretended to be afraid for their lives of their students (with covid). A lot of people realised just how inessential government public schools are: look at the increase in private school and homeschooling rates over the last year.

Public school teachers actually earn more like $100k+ on typical city districts, and have zero accountability. NYC, for example, can’t fire bad teachers, so they keep thousands on payroll who never teach.

[temporal1]

Josh:
.. Why are you so unhappy about this?
What's wrong with them being an independent school? ..

When DJT was elected POTUS in 2016 the world got a clear glimpse of the dedicated self-UNawareness of libs.
They HONESTLY had no idea lots of folks did not align with their thinking.

The response could have been to be open to learning. It wasn’t.



But none of us should complain.
Imagine Jesus’ frustration.

[Szdfan]

Josh:
.. Why are you so unhappy about this?
What's wrong with them being an independent school? ..

When DJT was elected POTUS in 2016 the world got a clear glimpse of the dedicated self-UNawareness of libs.
They HONESTLY had no idea lots of folks did not align with their thinking.

The response could have been to be open to learning. It wasn’t.



But none of us should complain.
Imagine Jesus’ frustration.

Just because you repeat yourself loudly, doesn't mean you're right.

[temporal1]

Just because you repeat yourself loudly, doesn't mean you're right.

correct.
just because you organize powerful+wealthy bullying political blocs+cults to normalize sins+crimes doesn’t mean you’re right, either.

But none of us should complain.
Imagine Jesus’ frustration.