Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

[Ken]

“ They have schools scattered all over the state and bring in about $350 million dollars that has been diverted from public schools”

“Diverted”? Parents pay taxes. They should be allowed to have these taxes pay for whatever school they wish.

A lot of the money gets diverted to shell companies that they set up for that purpose and then just vanishes. It is a neat trick.

You buy an old abandoned building. The Harmony school in Waco occupies an old abandoned Albertson's grocery building. https://goo.gl/maps/CNDECqDSys8LSdyT6 You budget $10 million of public dollars for renovations and pay a contracting shell company that you set up $10 million for the job. They do maybe $1 million of actual renovations and the other $9 million of public dollars vanishes into thin air (or into the pockets of Fethullah Gülen and his shadowy network of Muslim groups). A lot of the money they spend is actually bond obligations that the taxpayers are obligated to finance and repay even if the operation collapses so it is even worse. They are obligating future taxpayers to cover their debts even if they, themselves, vanish. With no elected school boards, no public supervision or oversight, nothing.

And of course, unlike with public schools, there is zero financial accountability because charter schools have been exempted by law from all the normal public accountability and open records laws that apply to normal public schools.

Public schools do all of the above and worse.

You’re just mad because now there’s competition for your public school racket.

Not at all. I have no problem whatsoever with charter schools if they are held to the same standards as public schools in terms of governance, accountability, and operations.

[temporal1]

[Josh]

A lot of the money gets diverted to shell companies that they set up for that purpose and then just vanishes. It is a neat trick.

You buy an old abandoned building. The Harmony school in Waco occupies an old abandoned Albertson's grocery building. https://goo.gl/maps/CNDECqDSys8LSdyT6 You budget $10 million of public dollars for renovations and pay a contracting shell company that you set up $10 million for the job. They do maybe $1 million of actual renovations and the other $9 million of public dollars vanishes into thin air (or into the pockets of Fethullah Gülen and his shadowy network of Muslim groups). A lot of the money they spend is actually bond obligations that the taxpayers are obligated to finance and repay even if the operation collapses so it is even worse. They are obligating future taxpayers to cover their debts even if they, themselves, vanish. With no elected school boards, no public supervision or oversight, nothing.

And of course, unlike with public schools, there is zero financial accountability because charter schools have been exempted by law from all the normal public accountability and open records laws that apply to normal public schools.

Public schools do all of the above and worse.

You’re just mad because now there’s competition for your public school racket.

Not at all. I have no problem whatsoever with charter schools if they are held to the same standards as public schools in terms of governance, accountability, and operations.

In other words, clones of public schools. For example, you’d probably want to require the same teachers’ unions.

Some of us want to escape the government monopoly of public schools. You seem very opposed to anyone not doing a “one size fits all” forced on them by the state.

The fact your own public schools are a failing disaster doesn’t seem to slow you down at all.

[joshuabgood]

You really just don’t like Sowell, do you

Au contraire I respect Sowell and have been following him since the 80s.

It has to do with my knowledge of what some charter schools are like with regard to behavior modification practices.

1. Following TS for 40 years, not mentioning his name before this. hmm.

2. TS is not Anabaptist, neither are public schools or charter schools, there are bound to be some points of contention.
Possibly school uniforms are required? Saluting the flag?

3. Discipline is racist.
(Altho it’s not just for the wealthy, it need not be costly; those who thrive, no matter station in life, usually credit their success to various forms of discipline.) Dr Ben Carson credits his mother who had hope, vision, focus, in very hard personal circumstances. Dr Carson’s experience, crediting home and faith support, is not uncommon for those who achieve against the odds. Self discipline may be most important factor in employment potential. Self discipline is respected.

4. Charter schools must not be churning out Dem voters as a standard result. (The current most important gov school standard.)

These are my guesses as to why jbg would oppose. TS describes various arguments against charter schools. Teacher unions oppose.
i think it’s valuable to listen to those who have achieved against the odds, and those who are specially invested in helping others like them find their way.

Quaint old habit i learned long ago. ^^ The voice of experience. A word to the wise.

TS has nothing to gain but rejection by taking his stand. He and others like him. The world offers riches and fame for the opposite. Imagine what an idol Dr Alveda King would be - if she just recited the lib narrative! No limits. She would enjoy a national holiday in her name. To imagine what these people have the strength to deny themselves. i don’t take it for granted. It takes backbone.

Altho i’m not black, and i have not achieved on TS’ or Dr Carson’s level of success, many of their family and life experiences resonate with my experience (i lived next door, we went to the same schools before 1964). Poverty with dignity, faith, hope, and vision. Hard, thankless work for very little pay. Gratitude in all circumstances. Denial of abundant temptations all around, accepting isolation over “fitting in.” Failures. Disappointments. Losses. Insults. As scriptures warn, life on earth is not easy.

1. Do I have to name drop everybody I have read and followed in the last 30-40 years...not only have I been following Sowell I follow those that influenced him. I have been following the University of Chicago school of economics thoughts for 25 years. I have Friedman, Hayek, and Mises, books/written materials and have read them. I have a number of works sponsored by Cato folks...I have several of Ron Paul's books.

2. Charter schools have numerous advantages over district schools. They routinely "dump" their students for whom learning comes harder, or who don't respond to their "discipline" tactics, back on district schools. When I was a principal of a public school in NYC two charter schools were notorious for "dumping" their students whom they thought wouldn't pass the Regents on me. I got students from them every year. District schools are not permitted to follow practices like these. Further, by the very nature of the lotto system, that they use for admittance, they are more likely to get students from more stable social conditions.

3. There is a plethora of data that shows that black students get stiffer punishments for the same offenses as white kids.

4. This point really strains credulity.

[joshuabgood]

A lot of the money gets diverted to shell companies that they set up for that purpose and then just vanishes. It is a neat trick.

You buy an old abandoned building. The Harmony school in Waco occupies an old abandoned Albertson's grocery building. https://goo.gl/maps/CNDECqDSys8LSdyT6 You budget $10 million of public dollars for renovations and pay a contracting shell company that you set up $10 million for the job. They do maybe $1 million of actual renovations and the other $9 million of public dollars vanishes into thin air (or into the pockets of Fethullah Gülen and his shadowy network of Muslim groups). A lot of the money they spend is actually bond obligations that the taxpayers are obligated to finance and repay even if the operation collapses so it is even worse. They are obligating future taxpayers to cover their debts even if they, themselves, vanish. With no elected school boards, no public supervision or oversight, nothing.

And of course, unlike with public schools, there is zero financial accountability because charter schools have been exempted by law from all the normal public accountability and open records laws that apply to normal public schools.

Public schools do all of the above and worse.

You’re just mad because now there’s competition for your public school racket.

i wrote:
My current property tax bill shows about 3/4 going to gov schools. That’s a lot.
The rest goes to fire protection services, roads+bridges, etc. Schools are the uncontested LIONS SHARE.

It’s about the money. And power.
Teachers’ unions look out for teachers; students+families .. not the mission.

TS describes a lot of this in his 57 min video above. He doesn’t refer to foxes and henhouses, but.

While teacher's unions are at times problematic...you are overstating it. I actually have a lot of experience dealing with the UFT. I once had a job where a core part of my job was negotiating with the UFT around school closure/restarts in NYC. There are many union people that do want what is best for students and families. I myself was a UFT member for 7 years.

I also fired UFT members...and fielded formal grievances from the UFT as a principal that were adjudicated (in my favor btw) by third parties.

Most people that write about NYC schooling issues and the UFT and district schools haven't been really that close to the work. There are some bad apples to be sure and generally I am against unions, however, as many things do, on the ground you realize the world is a bit different than in "book theory."

[Ken]

Public schools do all of the above and worse.

You’re just mad because now there’s competition for your public school racket.

i wrote:
My current property tax bill shows about 3/4 going to gov schools. That’s a lot.
The rest goes to fire protection services, roads+bridges, etc. Schools are the uncontested LIONS SHARE.

It’s about the money. And power.
Teachers’ unions look out for teachers; students+families .. not the mission.

TS describes a lot of this in his 57 min video above. He doesn’t refer to foxes and henhouses, but.

While teacher's unions are at times problematic...you are overstating it. I actually have a lot of experience dealing with the UFT. I once had a job where a core part of my job was negotiating with the UFT around school closure/restarts in NYC. There are many union people that do want what is best for students and families. I myself was a UFT member for 7 years.

I also fired UFT members...and fielded formal grievances from the UFT as a principal that were adjudicated (in my favor btw) by third parties.

Most people that write about NYC schooling issues and the UFT and district schools haven't been really that close to the work. There are some bad apples to be sure and generally I am against unions, however, as many things do, on the ground you realize the world is a bit different than in "book theory."

I have taught in schools with unions here in Washington and in schools without unions in Texas.

There is honestly very little difference in the ways that the schools operate. The main difference is that teachers in WA are better compensated. The current minimum salary for a new teacher in Texas is $33,600. Wealthy suburban districts pay more, but most smaller districts pay the minimum. They also don't get social security and the pension plan is mediocre to horrible for people who don't do a full 40-year teaching career in Texas. And they wonder why they have high turnover.

Anyone who wants to compare unionized vs non-union schools can easily do so. We have been running that experiment here in the US for 100 years. Feel free to compare educational outcomes in a state that has no teacher's unions, like South Carolina, to those in a state that has strong teacher's unions, like Massachusetts.

[temporal1]

jbg:
1. Do I have to name drop everybody I have read and followed in the last 30-40 years...

no need for drama.
i’ve posted a few of TS’ videos in recent months, hoping for opinions/feedback. it’s been pretty quiet.

[Josh]

1. Do I have to name drop everybody I have read and followed in the last 30-40 years...not only have I been following Sowell I follow those that influenced him. I have been following the University of Chicago school of economics thoughts for 25 years. I have Friedman, Hayek, and Mises, books/written materials and have read them. I have a number of works sponsored by Cato folks...I have several of Ron Paul's books.

It's suspicious when the first time you mention him is criticism. It's part of a pattern of consistently criticising any conservative thinkers, such as your recent criticism of Voddie Baucham for allegedly espousing Reformed theology.

2. Charter schools have numerous advantages over district schools. They routinely "dump" their students for whom learning comes harder, or who don't respond to their "discipline" tactics, back on district schools.

These are excuses for poor public school performance.

Charter schools often take very troubled students from public schools. Some explictly cater to this. There is a charter school where I live that is set up for pregnant students or students who recently had a baby, with things such as on-site daycare for infants.

When I was a principal of a public school in NYC two charter schools were notorious for "dumping" their students whom they thought wouldn't pass the Regents on me. I got students from them every year. District schools are not permitted to follow practices like these. Further, by the very nature of the lotto system, that they use for admittance, they are more likely to get students from more stable social conditions.

Yet more excuses for poor public school performance. You seem to only want charter schools to take very troubled students and are bothered by a "lotto system" which is obviously quite fair and distributes students fairly and randomly.

If public schools are better than charter schools, then you should be able to handle having them "dumped" on you and apply your superior educational methods and superior discipline and thus get students who can pass their Regents exams.

3. There is a plethora of data that shows that black students get stiffer punishments for the same offenses as white kids.

The same is true of male students vs female students. That doesn't mean that ceasing disciplining male students somehow makes things better. Proper discipline in schools actually is good for students, including the ones getting disciplined. Much of your "plethora of data" comes from biased sources who are looking for preconceived outcomes.

4. This point really strains credulity.

No, it doesn't. A great deal of people working within government schools have publicly stated it is their goal to produce citizens who are aligned with their own political and moral values. This includes voting for Democrats; do I need to give you examples of teachers who criticised Trump in the classroom? It does not "strain credulity" to point out that classrooms have been politicised.

What political parties does the teachers' union consistently support? What candidates in the last election? The election before that?

[Josh]

I have taught in schools with unions here in Washington and in schools without unions in Texas.

There is honestly very little difference in the ways that the schools operate. The main difference is that teachers in WA are better compensated.

So "very little difference" except one costs a lot more?

I'll take the cheaper one, thanks.

[joshuabgood]

It's suspicious when the first time you mention him is criticism. It's part of a pattern of consistently criticising any conservative thinkers, such as your recent criticism of Voddie Baucham for allegedly espousing Reformed theology

No. I appreciate conservative thinkers. That doesn't mean I agree with all of their positions. VB does espouse Reformed theology. There is no "allegedly." And he has a reformed.view of salvation.

These are excuses for poor public school performance.

Charter schools often take very troubled students from public schools. Some explictly cater to this. There is a charter school where I live that is set up for pregnant students or students who recently had a baby, with things such as on-site daycare for infants.

No they aren't. The super majority of charter schools get their students if their parents fill out a bunch of paperwork and get them in the lottery. Only active involved guardians even begin that process. Further, they do dump students that are tougher on district schools. I lived it. And no my school wasn't a failure. We got the highest score possible an A by the Bloomberg reform data scoring machine. Our score, using the same metric as NYC charters, busted many charters. I was there and lived it personally. And I am not even against charters. There are good ones. I had two good friends who were charter principals. One of a mom and pop charter and one of a big brand, Uncommon Schools Charter. The reason charters can dump students is because they function as a completely independent district. We were then forced to take the students they dumped.

Yet more excuses for poor public school performance. You seem to only want charter schools to take very troubled students and are bothered by a "lotto system" which is obviously quite fair and distributes students fairly and randomly.

If public schools are better than charter schools, then you should be able to handle having them "dumped" on you and apply your superior educational methods and superior discipline and thus get students who can pass their Regents exams.

With all due respect you are talking about things you don't know about. Charter schools are public schools. There are public schools, some are district and some are charter. There are good and bad both. Charter schools have many key advantages. They can dump students. They get students by default with more involved parents. And they get more money per student...since they are their own district.

The way the scoring of schools works is that kids who can't make it to grad in four years go to your denominator. When district schools receive e 11th and 12th graders who are way behind you only have two years or one year to get them up to speed. They are now on your grad cohort and off the charters. It is a problem unforeseen by the old NCLB regulators.

Again your simplistic black and white statements regarding discipline are ill nformed. As for discipline, our school, and plenty of others, worked well. We used a restorative approach that actually teaches students rather than a retributive obey or suffer approach.

Lastly, yes, there is solid data that male students get tougher punishments. And no...that isnt acceptable either. More broadly retributive discipline wont work...and won'y get us the adults and culture we want.