Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

[RZehr]

I will say that our lessons, testing and grading in our schools, is not being manipulated and adjusted in order to "show" certain achievements. Our lessons, testing and grading has remained pretty much the same for many years.

I'm not saying that any of these things happen at your community's school, but don't be so sure that they don't happen in conservative Anabaptist schools. About once a year or so I get pressured by parents to compromise academic standards.

Our schools do have strengths. Compared to average public schools (remembering that the worst examples tend to grab most of the attention), we probably have fewer discipline issues, especially serious ones involving drugs, violence, etc. (although these are not completely absent). I'm sure that the overall atmosphere tends to be more wholesome. Our schools give us opportunities to teach our values.

But I don't think our schools are academic powerhouses. I strongly suspect that our students' performance is about average when compared to the national average controlled for family structure and/or income, similar to what others have said earlier in this thread. You won't find many experienced Mennonite teachers insisting on our academic superiority, because we're painfully aware of how much better we could do. I certainly still have a lot of room for improvement as a teacher.

I don't know exactly how good or bad our schools compare in each given category. But I'm not seeing people graduate without knowing how to read or do math. Nor am I hearing parents or school boards saying that we should.

I suspect what is happening, is that public schools are being pressured to graduate students in order to boost their graduation rate. Family structure has long vanished. So the schools just decide to lower or eliminate the bar in order to graduate students anyway. Essentially the schools are giving up on these students. There is probably such a diminishing rate of return on the time and money spent on these students academic endeavors, and such a opposition from their parents and the school administration to fail them, that the easiest thing to do is just run them through the motions and call it good enough. It is a societal failure, really. Yes, the school is short changing them, and taking the easy way out. But society doesn't want to deal with reality.

[Ken]

I will say that our lessons, testing and grading in our schools, is not being manipulated and adjusted in order to "show" certain achievements. Our lessons, testing and grading has remained pretty much the same for many years.

I'm not saying that any of these things happen at your community's school, but don't be so sure that they don't happen in conservative Anabaptist schools. About once a year or so I get pressured by parents to compromise academic standards.

Our schools do have strengths. Compared to average public schools (remembering that the worst examples tend to grab most of the attention), we probably have fewer discipline issues, especially serious ones involving drugs, violence, etc. (although these are not completely absent). I'm sure that the overall atmosphere tends to be more wholesome. Our schools give us opportunities to teach our values.

But I don't think our schools are academic powerhouses. I strongly suspect that our students' performance is about average when compared to the national average controlled for family structure and/or income, similar to what others have said earlier in this thread. You won't find many experienced Mennonite teachers insisting on our academic superiority, because we're painfully aware of how much better we could do. I certainly still have a lot of room for improvement as a teacher.

I don't know exactly how good or bad our schools compare in each given category. But I'm not seeing people graduate without knowing how to read or do math. Nor am I hearing parents or school boards saying that we should.

I suspect what is happening, is that public schools are being pressured to graduate students in order to boost their graduation rate. Family structure has long vanished. So the schools just decide to lower or eliminate the bar in order to graduate students anyway. Essentially the schools are giving up on these students. There is probably such a diminishing rate of return on the time and money spent on these students academic endeavors, and such a opposition from their parents and the school administration to fail them, that the easiest thing to do is just run them through the motions and call it good enough. It is a societal failure, really. Yes, the school is short changing them, and taking the easy way out. But society doesn't want to deal with reality.

“Read and do math” is a pretty low bar. Most 3rd graders can read and do math. The question is what level of math and what type and level of English composition and literature we are talking about. And what ELSE should be included in a comprehensive HS education.

[RZehr]

“Read and do math” is a pretty low bar. Most 3rd graders can read and do math. The question is what level of math and what type and level of English composition and literature we are talking about. And what ELSE should be included in a comprehensive HS education.

It is indeed a low bar. So why should people be able to graduate without being able to do it? That is the problem, as I see it. If they can't do it at the level they ought, why graduate them? What exactly are they graduating? Its a pointless diploma. Refer to the links in the OP in this thread.

[temporal1]

West coast schools have had a generally bad reputation for decades.

When my grdaughter was born, 2007, i shared a fantasy of taking her to Switzerland for her education.
We had friends, she was a U.S. citizen, bilingual French, he was a Swiss citizen, fluent in French, German, English, a physicist.
They have son close to our son’s age.

Their son has dual citizenship, i’m not sure of his languages. He went to U.S. schools - their plan was for him to go to college in Switzerland (free for Swiss citizens). He went, could not keep up. Could not catch up.

Thus, i dreamed of taking her early and keeping her in Swiss schools. It’s nice to dream.

https://www.capcanaille.ch/fr/bienvenue/

[Ken]

“Read and do math” is a pretty low bar. Most 3rd graders can read and do math. The question is what level of math and what type and level of English composition and literature we are talking about. And what ELSE should be included in a comprehensive HS education.

It is indeed a low bar. So why should people be able to graduate without being able to do it? That is the problem, as I see it. If they can't do it at the level they ought, why graduate them? What exactly are they graduating? Its a pointless diploma. Refer to the links in the OP in this thread.

I'm all in favor of higher standards and improving education. In my experience, standardized testing doesn't achieve that.

I taught in Texas a decade ago when that state had very rigid standardized testing requirements for graduation. It doesn't work out like testing advocates describe or wish. What actually happens is that they start the testing early in 11th grade and give kids multiple chances to take the test and those who struggle get pulled out of their elective classes that they are actually interested in (and are often career-oriented like computer science). And instead they get put into mind-numbingly boring testing review classes where they do nothing but drill and prep for the test.

And for those who really can't get over the bar no matter how hard they try? There are always a few good kids who are just very poor test takers. Or maybe just a little slow but still good diligent kids. If they are poor they wind up as HS dropouts with no degree. And if they are rich what the parents most often do is find some local nearby private school to enroll the child in for the last week or so of school so that all their grades transfer to the private school and they graduate with a private school degree since private school students aren't required to do the same standardize testing. There were always local private schools who were happy to take parent's money to provide this service.

I had one student who's parents took this route. I don't think she ever darkened the doorway of the private school to which she "transferred". Her parents just paid a tuition payment and all the rest was just paperwork. The private school likes the money without having to actually teach the student. And the public school likes getting a potential dropout or failed student off its books. So win, win, win all around I guess. Except poor kids with disengaged parents don't have that option available.

I've actually taught remedial classes for students who failed standardized tests. There is no remediation "go back over the basics one more time" to any of it. It is all test prep like taking an SAT test prep class. Get the kids just enough test prep to get over the bar and the forget about it after that. All about mastering multiple-choice test taking skills. It's a complete waste of time.

And honestly, all this effort and angst was just for a very narrow subset of the student population. Most students in the top 75% or so (in terms of test taking skills, not necessarily grades) pass the standardized tests easily. The top 50% can do it in their sleep. Another 5 or 10% are learning disabled or special ed students who are not going to pass no matter how much drill you do. They simply aren't. And most get excused from the tests anyway.

That leaves about 5-10% of kids who are "on the bubble" for whom passing the test is going to be touch-and-go. Maybe half of them will pass it in the first or second try which leaves about 3-5% for whom you really have to struggle. Is it really in the student and state's interest to yank them out of elective classes that they might actually like, that might be career-oriented and the reason they actually like to come to school in the first place to put them into tests drill classes just to get 3 or 5 more multiple choice questions right on the next test? Who does that serve other than the "testing industrial complex" which is composed of companies like Pearson, which is not even an American company, but a UK conglomerate designed to extract billions of tax dollars from American school districts.

[joshuabgood]

A return to 1950s style discipline isn't the answer. Further, like I mentioned earlier, when you really look at the numbers of the drop-outs the statistics change substantially.

Effective teachers can manage children in any school in the country, including those in NYC.

Having taught everybody from old order Menno's to inner city NYC "failing" middle schools the underlying issues are the same.

i’m not sure what “style” discipline Thomas Sowell ascribes to.
but he is describing successful present-day NYC charter schools. i recommend listening to him.

Being deeply familiar with NYC charter schools, I couldn't give such a recommendation. I certainly wouldn't want my children in that type of environment. (Not all charter schools are equivalent of course)

[Josh]

A return to 1950s style discipline isn't the answer. Further, like I mentioned earlier, when you really look at the numbers of the drop-outs the statistics change substantially.

Effective teachers can manage children in any school in the country, including those in NYC.

Having taught everybody from old order Menno's to inner city NYC "failing" middle schools the underlying issues are the same.

i’m not sure what “style” discipline Thomas Sowell ascribes to.
but he is describing successful present-day NYC charter schools. i recommend listening to him.

Being deeply familiar with NYC charter schools, I couldn't give such a recommendation. I certainly wouldn't want my children in that type of environment. (Not all charter schools are equivalent of course)

You really just don’t like Sowell, do you

[joshuabgood]

i’m not sure what “style” discipline Thomas Sowell ascribes to.
but he is describing successful present-day NYC charter schools. i recommend listening to him.

Being deeply familiar with NYC charter schools, I couldn't give such a recommendation. I certainly wouldn't want my children in that type of environment. (Not all charter schools are equivalent of course)

You really just don’t like Sowell, do you

Au contraire I respect Sowell and have been following him since the 80s.

It has to do with my knowledge of what some charter schools are like with regard to behavior modification practices.

[Josh]

Is every charter school the same (public schools mostly are)?

I would think parents can choose from a variety of charter schools and find “behaviour modification practices” they’re comfortable with.

If you think no schools should ever engage in corporal punishment, well, that’s a different topic.

[Ken]

Being deeply familiar with NYC charter schools, I couldn't give such a recommendation. I certainly wouldn't want my children in that type of environment. (Not all charter schools are equivalent of course)

You really just don’t like Sowell, do you

Au contraire I respect Sowell and have been following him since the 80s.

It has to do with my knowledge of what some charter schools are like with regard to behavior modification practices.

I've personally seen one really good charter school. The Rapaport Academy in Waco https://www.rapoportacademy.org/ which occupies the renovated campus of what was formally Paul Quinn College, an historically black college that was in Waco for many decades until moving to Dallas in the 1990s. It is a local community-run project that operates as charter schools should operate rather as a for-profit grift like so many others.

And I've seen some really horrible charter schools. The largest charter school network in Texas is the Harmony Academies which are run by the secretive Gülenist Muslim sect out of Turkey and imports many low-paid teachers from Turkey to teach in their schools. They have schools scattered all over the state and bring in about $350 million dollars that has been diverted from public schools. Their history in Texas is replete with scandals, financial fraud, abuse, and a long list of other problem. I had a friend who taught there for a spell and the stories he told were creepy and horrifying. There have been all manner of horror stories about this chain of charter schools but the state department of education seems unable to reign them in because they have been hamstrung by laws that basically exempt charter schools from public accountability.

But if you want your children educated by a secretive Muslim sect, by teachers with questionable qualifications that are imported from Turkey, send them to the largest charter school network in Texas. After all, your tax dollars are paying for it.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2016/05 ... f-dealing/
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 45356.html
https://www.dailysabah.com/business/201 ... rror-group