Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:10 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:04 pmDo your Mennonite schools follow the same exact curriculum standards, graduation requirements, and testing requirements that you are now criticizing the suspension of in the public schools? Are you following the Common Core ELA and math standards that were the basis for the standardized tests that the governor just suspended for 3 years and are you using those same standardized tests?
We produce students who can read and do math, and consider it a serious problem if ANY student can't do these things, and it gets caught way before high school - many of us don't do high school at all.

The fact you can graduate a student from GRADE 12 that can't even read or do basic math should make you climb off your high horse and start to think about what the actual, real problem is.
So the answer is no then? You DON'T follow the same Common Core curriculum standards and standardized testing requirements that RZehr is criticizing the public schools for temporarily suspending?

Whatever the problems are in the public schools, and they are vast and complex. I promise you that they aren't caused by the fact that there is too little corporate-sponsored standardized testing.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:24 pmSo the answer is no then? You DON'T follow the same Common Core curriculum standards and standardized testing requirements that RZehr is criticizing the public schools for temporarily suspending?
RZehr's criticism is that they are suspending having any graduation standards at all.
Whatever the problems are in the public schools, and they are vast and complex. I promise you that they aren't caused by the fact that there is too little corporate-sponsored standardized testing.
"vast and complex"... you're getting a little closer to the root problem. Go back to smaller, neighbourhood schools. Go back to parents actually being involved with the school board. Go back to much smaller school districts.
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RZehr

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by RZehr »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:04 pm
RZehr wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:15 pm Now we are finding out that our Oregon Governor quietly signed a bill a month ago, that ends reading and math proficiency as a requirement for graduation. And the regional/state/local press doesn't seem really bothered by it whatsoever, simply reporting the facts dutifully and blandly (if even that), and hurriedly moving the news cycle on. Good thing the Governor is a Democrat in a blue state, and not a Republican in a southern state. The press would be going bananas, I think.
Oregon Gov. Kate Brown privately signed a bill last month ending the requirement for high school students to prove proficiency in reading, writing, and arithmetic before graduation.

Brown, a Democrat, did not hold a public signing or issue a press release regarding the passing of Senate Bill 744 on July 14, and the measure, which was approved by lawmakers in June, was not added into the state's legislative database until more than two weeks later on July 29, an unusually quiet approach to enacting legislation, according to the Oregonian.

......The bill, which suspends the proficiency requirements for students for three years, has attracted controversy for at least temporarily suspending academic standards amid the COVID-19 pandemic. Backers argued the existing proficiency levels for math and reading presented an unfair challenge for students who do not test well, and Charles Boyle, the governor's deputy communications director, said the new standards for graduation would aid Oregon's "Black, Latino, Latinx, Indigenous, Asian, Pacific Islander, Tribal, and students of color" in a statement to the Oregonian.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/oregon-govern ... 00667.html
Brilliant. Oregon public high school graduation certificates are now basically participation awards.
They just suspended the standardized testing graduation requirements for 3 years due to Covid while they determine what standards to replace them with.

There are still proficiency requirements to graduate. All public HS graduates in Oregon will still have to take and pass:

4 years of HS English
3 years of HS social studies
3 years of HS math
3 years of HS science.

During that time they will no doubt be taking hundreds of tests in all of those subjects and completing thousands of homework assignments and labs.

Back in the "good old days" that so many here reminisce about there weren't any required standardized tests required for HS graduation. The current requirements that the governor just suspended were put into place by the legislature in 2007, no doubt with a flock of lobbyists from private test companies like Pearson whispering in their ears.

As a teacher I can tell you that standardized testing is always a useless tool for both students and teachers. In my 15 years of teaching I have NEVER ONCE gotten any standardized test results back in a timely enough manner to actually use them for any purpose at all. If you are teaching science, the students take the standardized science test sometime in mid-May and then the test booklets are shipped off to Pearson or ETS or whatever company is processing them and you don't get any results back until maybe the following fall in late September when the student in question is long gone from your classroom and you have a whole new crop of students to teach. So you can't look at the results and say: Hmmm....this student is weak on kinematics, we need to brush up on that. They are long gone and now in a completely different science class and subject.

Do your Mennonite schools follow the same exact curriculum standards, graduation requirements, and testing requirements that you are now criticizing the suspension of in the public schools? Are you following the Common Core ELA and math standards that were the basis for the standardized tests that the governor just suspended for 3 years and are you using those same standardized tests?
I'm far removed from public schools. Here is a list of things in your post that I know next to nothing about, since we don't use them in our private Mennonite parochial schools:
Pearson
ETS
Standardized testing
Common Core
ELA
Math Standards

So I am not for, or against, these things. Not sure what standardized testing is, or why its such a bad thing. All our students take the same test. Is that standardized? Sounds like it means something else.

I will say that our lessons, testing and grading in our schools, is not being manipulated and adjusted in order to "show" certain achievements. Our lessons, testing and grading has remained pretty much the same for many years. And we aren't "temporarily (for the next three+ years!) suspending academic standards" because of COVID.
And I can also say that our students are able to read and write and do math. If they can't, they won't pass.
Can students graduate from public high school in Oregon while failing reading and math?
Last edited by RZehr on Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PeterG

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by PeterG »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:24 pmYou DON'T follow the same Common Core curriculum standards and standardized testing requirements that RZehr is criticizing the public schools for temporarily suspending?
Generally speaking, that is correct. State standards, and their applicability to private schools, vary by state, but from what I understand the applicability of these standards tends to be minimal (someone like JBG with more experience in administration could confirm or correct this). Aside from that, in my experience there are few if any formalized curriculum standards of any kind used by most conservative Anabaptist schools. It is common for our schools to use standardized achievement tests, but these play no role in meeting graduation requirements. We use them strictly as diagnostic tools.

For what it's worth, I have found standardized achievement tests to be helpful. My students generally take them seriously and do their best. I will generally see students back in my classroom (just at a higher grade level), so achievement tests are useful for giving me an idea of what may need to be addressed. They are also helpful for assessing the needs of incoming students.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:47 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:24 pmSo the answer is no then? You DON'T follow the same Common Core curriculum standards and standardized testing requirements that RZehr is criticizing the public schools for temporarily suspending?
RZehr's criticism is that they are suspending having any graduation standards at all.
No it isn't. Oregon has plenty of graduation standards. Pages of them that students must comply with in order to graduate.

What RZehr is writing about is the temporary 3-year suspension of standardized testing requirements in ELA and math that were put into place in 2007. They did this party because of the disruption brought on by Covid and party because they want to develop different and more comprehensive requirements to replace multiple-choice standardized tests.

That is actually something they should have been doing all along. But the Oregon Department of Education is particularly dysfunctional and public education in Oregon is something of a mess. Which is one of the reasons we decided to live in WA rather than OR when we moved back to the Pacific Northwest five years ago. I grew up in in Oregon and the public schools have atrophied relative to what they were when I was school age in the 70s and early 80s. The state was once a leader in public education but now gets its clock cleaned by states like MN, IA, and MA and even TX until recently.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:15 pm I grew up in in Oregon and the public schools have atrophied relative to what they were when I was school age in the 70s and early 80s. The state was once a leader in public education but now gets its clock cleaned by states like MN, IA, and MA and even TX until recently.
Hmm. So what's changed? Oregon certainly hasn't become more Republican!
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Ken
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
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Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by Ken »

PeterG wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:06 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:24 pmYou DON'T follow the same Common Core curriculum standards and standardized testing requirements that RZehr is criticizing the public schools for temporarily suspending?
Generally speaking, that is correct. State standards, and their applicability to private schools, vary by state, but from what I understand the applicability of these standards tends to be minimal (someone like JBG with more experience in administration could confirm or correct this). Aside from that, in my experience there are few if any formalized curriculum standards of any kind used by most conservative Anabaptist schools. It is common for our schools to use standardized achievement tests, but these play no role in meeting graduation requirements. We use them strictly as diagnostic tools.

For what it's worth, I have found standardized achievement tests to be helpful. My students generally take them seriously and do their best. I will generally see students back in my classroom (just at a higher grade level), so achievement tests are useful for giving me an idea of what may need to be addressed. They are also helpful for assessing the needs of incoming students.
Standardized testing would actually be useful in that context. As a diagnostic tool to determine where students are weak and where to target your instruction. But in the public schools they are never used that way. Well, to be perfectly correct we do actually use various standardized tests all the time in the classroom to determine placement and for formative testing to see where students entering your class are at. But those are just tests we pull down off curriculum sites, print out, and administer ourselves.

What we are talking about here are state-administered standardized tests. Take science. Depending on the state and district you can have a 4-year sequence that looks something like this:

In Texas

9th grade: Biology
10th grade: Chemistry
11th grade: Physics
12th grade: science elective (usually AP science for college bound or some biomed/animal science/forensic science type class for the less academic)

In Washington

9th grade: Physical Science (combination of physics and chemistry)
10th grade: Biology
11th grade: choice of lab science, usually chemistry or physics or an AP science
12th grade: No science requirement but most college bound students take an AP science.

Notice that no science subject repeats from year to year? So what happens is that you administer a state-mandated multiple choice biology test to your freshman or sophomores at the end of the year, usually in May. The test booklets go off to Pearson or ETS or whoever is contracted to scan them and generate the results. And you maybe get the results back in late September when those kids are all long gone and you will likely never see them again. What is next year's chemistry teacher supposed to do with student scores on their 9th grade biology standardized test? So what are they good for? Nothing really except to generate state rankings of different high schools and school districts which real estate agents pour over and determine things like property values.

And predictably, standardized test scores correlate almost exactly with the level of wealth and diversity in a particular school or district. Rich white districts with lots of engaged parents and college-bound kids tend to score highly. Poor districts with lots of immigrant children and less engaged parents tend to score less well. It is utterly predictable. So what is actually accomplished? Not to mention the fact that the kids quickly figure out these tests are an utter waste of time so many don't bother to put out much effort.

But they are a HUGE money maker for the big private testing companies who's lobbyists have the ears of enough state legislators to keep ramping up testing requirements year after year, which takes more and more instructional time out of the classroom.

They say one purpose is testing for "college readiness" but that is belied by the fact that no college anywhere in the country uses the results of these state-mandated standardized tests for college admission. They traditionally used the separate SAT or ACT instead, which cost even more and are generally administered outside of school at regional test centers on Saturdays and cost a lot of money.
Last edited by Ken on Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
PeterG

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by PeterG »

RZehr wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:05 pm I will say that our lessons, testing and grading in our schools, is not being manipulated and adjusted in order to "show" certain achievements. Our lessons, testing and grading has remained pretty much the same for many years.
I'm not saying that any of these things happen at your community's school, but don't be so sure that they don't happen in conservative Anabaptist schools. About once a year or so I get pressured by parents to compromise academic standards.

Our schools do have strengths. Compared to average public schools (remembering that the worst examples tend to grab most of the attention), we probably have fewer discipline issues, especially serious ones involving drugs, violence, etc. (although these are not completely absent). I'm sure that the overall atmosphere tends to be more wholesome. Our schools give us opportunities to teach our values.

But I don't think our schools are academic powerhouses. I strongly suspect that our students' performance is about average when compared to the national average controlled for family structure and/or income, similar to what others have said earlier in this thread. You won't find many experienced Mennonite teachers insisting on our academic superiority, because we're painfully aware of how much better we could do. I certainly still have a lot of room for improvement as a teacher.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:16 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:15 pm I grew up in in Oregon and the public schools have atrophied relative to what they were when I was school age in the 70s and early 80s. The state was once a leader in public education but now gets its clock cleaned by states like MN, IA, and MA and even TX until recently.
Hmm. So what's changed? Oregon certainly hasn't become more Republican!
A whole lot of things caused by both Republicans and Democrats over the years. And a general lackadaisical approach to education that is sort of like the boiled frog syndrome where no one seems to notice that they are falling behind bit by bit. If you are curious, here is a story from some years ago about the high school that I attended from 78-82 and how far it had fallen that goes into a lot of the issues: https://www.registerguard.com/article/2 ... /301299999

When we moved back to this part of the country I very deliberately made sure we were moving to WA and not OR for better K-12 education as well as better higher education opportunities.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
PeterG

Re: Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

Post by PeterG »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:36 pm Standardized testing would actually be useful in that context. As a diagnostic tool to determine where students are weak and where to target your instruction. But in the public schools they are never used that way. Well, to be perfectly correct we do actually use various standardized tests all the time in the classroom to determine placement and for formative testing to see where students entering your class are at. But those are just tests we pull down off curriculum sites, print out, and administer ourselves.

What we are talking about here are state-administered standardized tests.
Right. The circumstances are significantly different.
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