We don't need to be afraid of CRT

[temporal1]

Mr French is part of the problems Josh points to in this thread. in my view.
Honduras Keiser sometimes refers to DF, with his own thoughts.
The comment was not a waste of time. i often review comments to get an idea of response to news+opinion pieces.

And what about David Platt. Is he part of the problem too from your perspective? Not his church with the "conservative" members suing to remove him?

Why does a group of conservative Mennonites need to be concerned about what other denominations are doing?
David French is a warmonger who has yet to apologise for being part of killing hundreds of thousands of people in a war for fake, false reasons - and costing America over $1 trillion just in Afghanistan. I’m not interested in hearing anything he has to say about spiritual matters. He needs to repent.

David Platt is (presumably) a Baptist. Most people in my church circles think Baptists are in grave error due to some of their beliefs on salvation; we do not wish to be influenced by them. By the same token, I’m not sure I need to try to influence their internal politics.

Josh, can you stick to talking about actually Mennonite and Anabaptist things instead?
And maybe look a little broader than just the most liberal wing of “conservative Anabaptism” that you inhabit? And perhaps help us understand how your agenda won’t lead to the same sorry end as MC USA has ended up in?

The conundrum for me in this is, these types of discussions bring out so many quality and detailed defenses for authentic Christianity, by those often quiet, and in ways that help folks like me understand points that might otherwise go unknown.

Your response here is an example.

That’s a value of discussion, right? Discussion is an opp for balanced opinions and information.
Something the world is not good at. Not in “news” reporting, not in gov schools, etc.

In these discussions, i find CMs here capable and impressive in defense of their faith.
Occasionally, some learning occurs.

[RZehr]

If one were to ask members of your congregation why white people are on average 7 times wealthier than black people...what do you think their response would be? Or why there are so many more black people in prison than white people proportionally? What would you/they say? Or why CA churches are so white...

Not sure what my quote has to do with your questions. I’m scratching my head. The only thing I can finally figure out- Are you really reading into my quote about “sinful things”, as in black people are poor and in jail or whatever because of their own actions, i.e. “sinful things”? If so, please remove your "everywhiteMennoniteisasecretracist" X-ray goggles.
I meant that as in we Christians in the church, do not need CRT or anything else to explain or excuse sinful things such as racism, or greed, or how to respond to spite or unfairness. I meant that we aren't afraid of CRT. Not afraid that it is right, not afraid that it is wrong. It may very well be mostly right. Doesn't matter, we already are told how to live and treat people and how to accept mistreatment.

Thanks for writing this...

I wasn't sure what you meant, but CRT provides a social explanation for why black people are marginalized economically and socially. So I wanted to know simply how you and your church would answer the question as to why black people are 7 times poorer, more likely to go to jail, etc etc. It isn't, unfortunately, uncommon for some white Christians to explain this lower status to black people by blaming the victims. Arguments like the "Father's aren't home" or "they have sex outside of marriage" or "they commit more crimes" or "they are lazy" or other things like that...and if they would just stop complaining, get over their victim mentality, and work a little harder things would go better for them because no one is racist anymore. With the implication also being that "white" people don't have the same sinful behaviors. The questioning doesn't always proceed further to asking additional "why" questions or what are the systems in place that are inherently racist that provoke, and have provoked this condition.

This is a difficult thing, the broken homes, the committing of crimes, and the lazy. Because no doubt these things are present, and are difficult to overcome. And yes, I do still believe in individual responsibility and the free agency. But I can't make the implication that white people are any different.

Secondly, CRT primarily focuses itself not on individual/personal racism but on how racism permeates society and culture. So I am not intending to targeting you or your church specifically as racist. That said, I see the truth being that racism is the sin of pride and our propensity to favor people that look and remind us of us. And beings that is part of the human condition, much like lust, greed, etc, we all carry the propensity for explicit and implicit bias. That doesn't mean we are terrible people. It means we are in need of continuing growth and ongoing sanctification. Sermons on racism/favoritism should be received in the same way that sermons on greed or lust should be received.

If CRT primarily focuses itself not on individual/personal but instead the society and culture, that runs seemingly counter to traditional Anabaptist thinking. We are strongly focused on the individual. We don't try to "Christianize" governments. We leave sinful society (at the societal level) to the sinful government that God ordained.
If you are to ask an Anabaptist how to fix societies problems, we are unlikely to turn to Science and studies (although I can't say they are incorrect. I would tend to think that a secular government and society that is not going to follow God, should at least use good science and evidence in an honest attempt at good government.), instead our focus will revert to things like: 1. Calling individuals to follow Jesus, 2. Pray for our Government.

It is hard for me to accept the label "liberal." And I am not sure what you mean by that. Politically, well, I am apolitical with regard to worldly politics. And even if I wasn't, my views on abortion, alternate sexual practice, and the economic impact of safety net programs, taxation...wouldn't go far in the liberal party. If you mean liberal with regard to CA...I also resist that label a bit. While it is true I don't have a strong support for ethnic practices as church standards, I usually find myself more conservative with regard to political involvement, financial accumulation, methods of evangelism, etc.

I would consider yourself as a liberal Mennonite, on the Mennonite spectrum. That isn't to say that someone cannot be quite conservative in some things. I suppose we could find something that you might be more conservative on than myself.

[joshuabgood]

Mr French is part of the problems Josh points to in this thread. in my view.
Honduras Keiser sometimes refers to DF, with his own thoughts.
The comment was not a waste of time. i often review comments to get an idea of response to news+opinion pieces.

And what about David Platt. Is he part of the problem too from your perspective? Not his church with the "conservative" members suing to remove him?

Why does a group of conservative Mennonites need to be concerned about what other denominations are doing? David French is a warmonger who has yet to apologise for being part of killing hundreds of thousands of people in a war for fake, false reasons - and costing America over $1 trillion just in Afghanistan. I’m not interested in hearing anything he has to say about spiritual matters. He needs to repent.

David Platt is (presumably) a Baptist. Most people in my church circles think Baptists are in grave error due to some of their beliefs on salvation; we do not wish to be influenced by them. By the same token, I’m not sure I need to try to influence their internal politics.

Josh, can you stick to talking about actually Mennonite and Anabaptist things instead? And maybe look a little broader than just the most liberal wing of “conservative Anabaptism” that you inhabit? And perhaps help us understand how your agenda won’t lead to the same sorry end as MC USA has ended up in?

Well maybe there is a connection between French's (wrong) views in war and his defense of Davis Platt, but as of now it isn't clear to me. Can you connect the dots for me? (Incidentally Baucham is not nonresistant either...)

While I have no problem pushing on Baptists, I dont buy into the "one true church"of the Holdemans. And David Platt, after reading Radical and Follow Me, I really respect. And many others in other faith traditions.

Anabaptists, with their kingdom view of salvation, their focus on following the teachings and witness of Jesus, and history of being oppressed, should be among the first to work for racial reconciliation among oppressed races. We should be working for the downtrodden in our society. Those that are left behind socially and economically. Those in prison etc.

[joshuabgood]

Not sure what my quote has to do with your questions. I’m scratching my head. The only thing I can finally figure out- Are you really reading into my quote about “sinful things”, as in black people are poor and in jail or whatever because of their own actions, i.e. “sinful things”? If so, please remove your "everywhiteMennoniteisasecretracist" X-ray goggles.
I meant that as in we Christians in the church, do not need CRT or anything else to explain or excuse sinful things such as racism, or greed, or how to respond to spite or unfairness. I meant that we aren't afraid of CRT. Not afraid that it is right, not afraid that it is wrong. It may very well be mostly right. Doesn't matter, we already are told how to live and treat people and how to accept mistreatment.

Thanks for writing this...

I wasn't sure what you meant, but CRT provides a social explanation for why black people are marginalized economically and socially. So I wanted to know simply how you and your church would answer the question as to why black people are 7 times poorer, more likely to go to jail, etc etc. It isn't, unfortunately, uncommon for some white Christians to explain this lower status to black people by blaming the victims. Arguments like the "Father's aren't home" or "they have sex outside of marriage" or "they commit more crimes" or "they are lazy" or other things like that...and if they would just stop complaining, get over their victim mentality, and work a little harder things would go better for them because no one is racist anymore. With the implication also being that "white" people don't have the same sinful behaviors. The questioning doesn't always proceed further to asking additional "why" questions or what are the systems in place that are inherently racist that provoke, and have provoked this condition.

This is a difficult thing, the broken homes, the committing of crimes, and the lazy. Because no doubt these things are present, and are difficult to overcome. And yes, I do still believe in individual responsibility and the free agency. But I can't make the implication that white people are any different.

Secondly, CRT primarily focuses itself not on individual/personal racism but on how racism permeates society and culture. So I am not intending to targeting you or your church specifically as racist. That said, I see the truth being that racism is the sin of pride and our propensity to favor people that look and remind us of us. And beings that is part of the human condition, much like lust, greed, etc, we all carry the propensity for explicit and implicit bias. That doesn't mean we are terrible people. It means we are in need of continuing growth and ongoing sanctification. Sermons on racism/favoritism should be received in the same way that sermons on greed or lust should be received.

If CRT primarily focuses itself not on individual/personal but instead the society and culture, that runs seemingly counter to traditional Anabaptist thinking. We are strongly focused on the individual. We don't try to "Christianize" governments. We leave sinful society (at the societal level) to the sinful government that God ordained.
If you are to ask an Anabaptist how to fix societies problems, we are unlikely to turn to Science and studies (although I can't say they are incorrect. I would tend to think that a secular government and society that is not going to follow God, should at least use good science and evidence in an honest attempt at good government.), instead our focus will revert to things like: 1. Calling individuals to follow Jesus, 2. Pray for our Government.

It is hard for me to accept the label "liberal." And I am not sure what you mean by that. Politically, well, I am apolitical with regard to worldly politics. And even if I wasn't, my views on abortion, alternate sexual practice, and the economic impact of safety net programs, taxation...wouldn't go far in the liberal party. If you mean liberal with regard to CA...I also resist that label a bit. While it is true I don't have a strong support for ethnic practices as church standards, I usually find myself more conservative with regard to political involvement, financial accumulation, methods of evangelism, etc.

I would consider yourself as a liberal Mennonite, on the Mennonite spectrum. That isn't to say that someone cannot be quite conservative in some things. I suppose we could find something that you might be more conservative on than myself.

I wont argue the point necessarily, but I'll just say I have a wide range of experience across the whole of the CA spectrum, and there are issues where I am generally more conservative..we can discuss them if you'd like. FWIW I also think the conservative/liberal lens is actually a pretty insufficient model.

[Robert]

There is a lot of Biblical data for addressing racism.

There is racism. There is elitism. There is Mennonism. There is a lot of isms.

The answer to all of it is simple. It is humble love. Jesus calls us to this. I am not perfect. I need reminders. I do not need a system to implement it. I just need to be reminded of who I follow.

This seems really simplistic and, well, conveniently ignores that Jesus has called us to this humble love for ages now. And yet, somehow, his words haven’t really kept professing Christ followers from being racist (or all other kinds of evil) throughout those ages. His followers seem to be supremely bad at the ‘simple’ act of following his words.

It is what works for me. If you need more, feel free to build what you need to overcome your prejudices. I hope you can let the Holy Spirit transform your heart so you can just love another person. It is very hard. Our neighbors are being quite harsh and are upset with us, although they are the ones doing things like calling child protective services. We keep trying to accept and love. It worked with one neighbor, but not the other, yet. I will be patient and keep praying for them and us.

Humble love is really hard, but it is worth the effort. We will keep trying to live it.

[Josh]

Anabaptists, with their kingdom view of salvation, their focus on following the teachings and witness of Jesus, and history of being oppressed, should be among the first to work for racial reconciliation among oppressed races. We should be working for the downtrodden in our society. Those that are left behind socially and economically. Those in prison etc.

This was the path most of the leadership in MC USA took. If that’s what you think leads to good spiritual life, go and be part of a group of people who share that vision.

Regarding David French - I’m just not sure why you would expect me to want to listen to anything he has to say. He isn’t a “conservative” (although he claims to be). He always pushes in a leftist, progressive direction - except when it comes to war. Then he’s very soundly neo-conservative. I have no interest in political conservatives who beat wardrums. Everything they say is suspect and is fruit from a poisoned tree.

[MaxPC]

Anabaptists, with their kingdom view of salvation, their focus on following the teachings and witness of Jesus, and history of being oppressed, should be among the first to work for racial reconciliation among oppressed races. We should be working for the downtrodden in our society. Those that are left behind socially and economically. Those in prison etc.

This was the path most of the leadership in MC USA took. If that’s what you think leads to good spiritual life, go and be part of a group of people who share that vision.

Regarding David French - I’m just not sure why you would expect me to want to listen to anything he has to say. He isn’t a “conservative” (although he claims to be). He always pushes in a leftist, progressive direction - except when it comes to war. Then he’s very soundly neo-conservative. I have no interest in political conservatives who beat wardrums. Everything they say is suspect and is fruit from a poisoned tree.

Indeed; and that poisoned tree is not Biblically based. It is politically based and therefore has no place in General Theology. Political solutions fail. God never fails. Those who trust in political solutions have placed the idolatry of politics over the worship of God.

Humble love is really hard, but it is worth the effort. We will keep trying to live it.

Quite sums up the Biblical teaching nicely and God's ability to perfect all situations.

[temporal1]

jbg:
Anabaptists, with their kingdom view of salvation, their focus on following the teachings and witness of Jesus, and history of being oppressed, should be among the first to work for racial reconciliation among oppressed races.

We should be working for the downtrodden in our society.
Those that are left behind socially and economically. Those in prison etc.

On this forum, i find CMs who do all these things you describe, and have been doing so all along, without the force of the sword.
All diligently, effectively, without public fanfare. If “it has to be in headlines, or it doesn’t exist,” the heavy lifters do not exist.

When i learn of non-Anabaptists respected by these folks, like VB, the common traits respected do not lead to government mandates for answers, but to personal, first-person free will investment and actions. Jesus knows their names.

The end goals are the same. Or similar. The noisy lib political INSINUATIONS are that conservatives are patently greedy and evil.
“By force of the sword” is the sticking point.

Jesus didn’t say, “organize political blocs for power and access to the public treasury (other peoples’ money) to do my will.”
Theft doesn’t make anyone generous. or Christ-like.

Addressing this forum as if members are “dedicated conservative extremists,” or responsible for them, is .. lame.
Possibly understandable by new members.

Bizarre coming from anyone who has been present long enough to “get to know” members, their views and actions and history.

Questioning anyone’s faith on basis of whether they support any given political narrative, is .. lame.

“We” must support ________.” [On this forum, who is “we?”]
Even CMs present are from various fellowships and conferences. Not all are Anabaptist. Not all are Christians.

i’m not sure i know of even 1 member that would approach “conservative extremism” .. if existent, a small group.
No matter how many offensive memes anyone can find to throw around in damning+accusatory ways.

there is a popular pattern of folks “staking out sides” (where sides do not exist) for the purpose of creating debate/turmoil.
it’s a political tool, useful for politicians.

peace is not their goal. it does not sell. it doesn’t get votes.

ordinary people are best to identify and reject these manipulative worldly games.
in the least, refusal to propagate them is the better choice.

[joshuabgood]

jbg:
Anabaptists, with their kingdom view of salvation, their focus on following the teachings and witness of Jesus, and history of being oppressed, should be among the first to work for racial reconciliation among oppressed races.

We should be working for the downtrodden in our society.
Those that are left behind socially and economically. Those in prison etc.

On this forum, i find CMs who do all these things you describe, and have been doing so all along, without the force of the sword.
All diligently, effectively, without public fanfare. If “it has to be in headlines, or it doesn’t exist,” the heavy lifters do not exist.

When i learn of non-Anabaptists respected by these folks, like VB, the common traits respected do not lead to government mandates for answers, but to personal, first-person free will investment and actions. Jesus knows their names.

The end goals are the same. Or similar. The noisy lib political INSINUATIONS are that conservatives are patently greedy and evil.
“By force of the sword” is the sticking point.

Jesus didn’t say, “organize political blocs for power and access to the public treasury (other peoples’ money) to do my will.”
Theft doesn’t make anyone generous. or Christ-like.

Addressing this forum as if members are “dedicated conservative extremists,” or responsible for them, is .. lame.
Possibly understandable by new members.

Bizarre coming from anyone who has been present long enough to “get to know” members, their views and actions and history.

Questioning anyone’s faith on basis of whether they support any given political narrative, is .. lame.

“We” must support ________.” [On this forum, who is “we?”]
Even CMs present are from various fellowships and conferences. Not all are Anabaptist. Not all are Christians.

i’m not sure i know of even 1 member that would approach “conservative extremism” .. if existent, a small group.
No matter how many offensive memes anyone can find to throw around in damning+accusatory ways.

there is a popular pattern of folks “staking out sides” (where sides do not exist) for the purpose of creating debate/turmoil.
it’s a political tool, useful for politicians.

peace is not their goal. it does not sell. it doesn’t get votes.

ordinary people are best to identify and reject these manipulative worldly games.
in the least, refusal to propagate them is the better choice.

I don't believe in using the sword. That isn't what I am talking about. On the contrary I think I have consistently advocated for a suffering love position.

[temporal1]

jbg:
I don't believe in using the sword. That isn't what I am talking about.
On the contrary I think I have consistently advocated for a suffering love position.

i believe you. that’s pretty much why i posted.
possibly Josh/GaryK/Robert/Grace, others, can do a better job of explaining the bumps involved.

there are bumps, i’m sorry to say. the only winners are politicians.

in my mind, everything you’re interested in doing can be found right here. men and women walking the talk. you have to pay attention. they are busy, and they are not noisy. Anabaptists and others. not in headlines anywhere.