The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Soloist]

I think you have a very distorted view of Portland. It is really a very ordinary American city.

I've been in Portland... It is not a very ordinary city. Most cities in the USA manage their problems better. Portland is a disaster that I would never take a job in. There are entire sections taken over by homeless or street gangs... Businesses are leaving.

[Ken]

Actually that was another neighbor who built a big pool. This is the house I should have linked to. It has been awhile and I had them confused.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1235 ... 0544_zpid/

We had the 2200 sf house down the street that I bought partially finished from the builder and spent a couple months fixing up and cleaning out the scorpions and rattlesnakes before moving in. But it was a neighborhood where some people built some pretty big estates. Haven't been there in 13 years.

So Victor Marx?
If he only works one day a month, who does his podcasts and website updates for him?
Is he the guy pictured on his website, or is that someone else?

Yes, that is the guy. I forgot his name. This was over 15 years ago when we were neighbors. About 2005 or 2006. My kids and his kids said he never left the house and basically spent his days playing video games. Back then he was claiming to be a world champion of some form of Cajun martial arts that apparently he invented. I see now he is going in a different direction with all the vet and PTSD stuff. No wait. I see on his web site that he still claims to be a 7th degree black belt in Cajun Karate Keichu https://victormarx.com/the-victor-marx-story/ (scroll down) which isn't actually a real thing but something his dad made up. When I checked up via the county assessors web site I discovered he was paying no property taxes because everything was in the name of his ministry.

I was curious and did a little more digging and apparently they moved their gig on from Waco to Colorado Springs. According to his public 503(c) filing his "ministry" took in $2.2 million in donations over the past year and had $2.3 million in expenses as follows: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/a ... 200310367/

$913k: Expense, other
$320k: Travel
$273k: Comp, officers
$772k: Misc other expenses

And that $273k in "Comp, officers" is the salary that he pays to himself and his wife. In 2018 he paid himself $900k so I guess he got a pay cut this year. And $320,000 per year in travel must be a lot of first class or private jet airfare and 5-star resort stays.

They did make one $5000 grant to an organization that fights human trafficking so there's that. They aren't pocketing ALL the money.

Pretty good gig if you can get it. Pay yourself a cool quarter million dollars, expense out every bit of your travel, expense out your mansion, cars, ATVs, boat, etc. as a ministry expenses and parsonage. Kick back $5,000 so that you've done your good deed.

Who says being Christian doesn't pay?

I can't think of a better example of what we are talking about in terms of how Christian vs LGBT owned businesses are privileged or disadvantaged in this country. An LGBT business owner who tried the same financial stunts would land themselves in jail so fast your head would spin.

[ken_sylvania]

So Victor Marx?
If he only works one day a month, who does his podcasts and website updates for him?
Is he the guy pictured on his website, or is that someone else?

Yes, that is the guy. I forgot his name. This was over 15 years ago when we were neighbors. About 2005 or 2006. My kids and his kids said he never left the house and basically spent his days playing video games. Back then he was claiming to be a world champion of some form of Cajun martial arts that apparently he invented. I see now he is going in a different direction with all the vet and PTSD stuff. No wait. I see on his web site that he still claims to be a 7th degree black belt in Cajun Karate Keichu https://victormarx.com/the-victor-marx-story/ (scroll down) which isn't actually a real thing but something his dad made up. When I checked up via the county assessors web site I discovered he was paying no property taxes because everything was in the name of his ministry.

I was curious and did a little more digging and apparently they moved their gig on from Waco to Colorado Springs. According to his public 503(c) filing his "ministry" took in $2.2 million in donations over the past year and had $2.3 million in expenses as follows: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/a ... 200310367/

$913k: Expense, other
$320k: Travel
$273k: Comp, officers
$772k: Misc other expenses

And that $273k in "Comp, officers" is the salary that he pays to himself and his wife. In 2018 he paid himself $900k so I guess he got a pay cut this year. And $320,000 per year in travel must be a lot of first class or private jet airfare and 5-star resort stays.

They did make one $5000 grant to an organization that fights human trafficking so there's that. They aren't pocketing ALL the money.

Pretty good gig if you can get it. Pay yourself a cool quarter million dollars, expense out every bit of your travel, expense out your mansion, cars, ATVs, boat, etc. as a ministry expenses and parsonage. Kick back $5,000 so that you've done your good deed.

Who says being Christian doesn't pay?

I can't think of a better example of what we are talking about in terms of how Christian vs LGBT owned businesses are privileged or disadvantaged in this country. An LGBT business owner who tried the same financial stunts would land themselves in jail so fast your head would spin.

That's a lot of travel expenses for a guy that spends all but one day a month in his mansion playing video games.

[Ken]

I think you have a very distorted view of Portland. It is really a very ordinary American city.

I've been in Portland... It is not a very ordinary city. Most cities in the USA manage their problems better. Portland is a disaster that I would never take a job in. There are entire sections taken over by homeless or street gangs... Businesses are leaving.

Actually it is the opposite. Portland population grew by 21% from 1990 to 2000, by 10% from 2000 to 2010 and by 13% from 2010 to 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon and real estate prices are going up even faster.

The region has recovered 84,000 jobs since the peak of the pandemic in May 2020 which is about the same rate of growth as the national average and more people continue to move into the area. The current unemployment rate is lower than the national average and about the same as Austin TX but not quite as good as Seattle. The real estate market where I live has been white-hot in the past 6 months. Tons of Californians moving in to work remotely. There are construction cranes all over the place with new offices, apartments, and hotels going up.

I just drove downtown today with my daughter to pick up some college-related computer accessories at the Apple Store and so she could visit her favorite Japanese art store. We walked around downtown Portland and didn't see any of what you describe. There were lots of people out and about and the restaurants and sidewalk dining were packed. I think you watch too much Fox News.

[Ken]

Yes, that is the guy. I forgot his name. This was over 15 years ago when we were neighbors. About 2005 or 2006. My kids and his kids said he never left the house and basically spent his days playing video games. Back then he was claiming to be a world champion of some form of Cajun martial arts that apparently he invented. I see now he is going in a different direction with all the vet and PTSD stuff. No wait. I see on his web site that he still claims to be a 7th degree black belt in Cajun Karate Keichu https://victormarx.com/the-victor-marx-story/ (scroll down) which isn't actually a real thing but something his dad made up. When I checked up via the county assessors web site I discovered he was paying no property taxes because everything was in the name of his ministry.

I was curious and did a little more digging and apparently they moved their gig on from Waco to Colorado Springs. According to his public 503(c) filing his "ministry" took in $2.2 million in donations over the past year and had $2.3 million in expenses as follows: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/a ... 200310367/

$913k: Expense, other
$320k: Travel
$273k: Comp, officers
$772k: Misc other expenses

And that $273k in "Comp, officers" is the salary that he pays to himself and his wife. In 2018 he paid himself $900k so I guess he got a pay cut this year. And $320,000 per year in travel must be a lot of first class or private jet airfare and 5-star resort stays.

They did make one $5000 grant to an organization that fights human trafficking so there's that. They aren't pocketing ALL the money.

Pretty good gig if you can get it. Pay yourself a cool quarter million dollars, expense out every bit of your travel, expense out your mansion, cars, ATVs, boat, etc. as a ministry expenses and parsonage. Kick back $5,000 so that you've done your good deed.

Who says being Christian doesn't pay?

I can't think of a better example of what we are talking about in terms of how Christian vs LGBT owned businesses are privileged or disadvantaged in this country. An LGBT business owner who tried the same financial stunts would land themselves in jail so fast your head would spin.

That's a lot of travel expenses for a guy that spends all but one day a month in his mansion playing video games.

Like I said, that was 15+ years ago. I don't know what he does with his time now. Apparently a lot of it involves disarming muggers according to the videos on his web site. The larger point is that if you claim to be a religious ministry there is pretty much no one really checking what you are actually doing with your money. That is some serious privilege.

And it's not just these small timers. Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York lives tax-free and rent-free in a 15,000-square-foot mansion on Madison Avenue valued at a cool $30 million. While the Catholic Church itself took in over $3 BILLION in taxpayer-funded PPP grants over the past year.

[Soloist]

Actually it is the opposite. Portland population grew by 21% from 1990 to 2000, by 10% from 2000 to 2010 and by 13% from 2010 to 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon and real estate prices are going up even faster.

The region has recovered 84,000 jobs since the peak of the pandemic in May 2020 which is about the same rate of growth as the national average and more people continue to move into the area. The current unemployment rate is lower than the national average and about the same as Austin TX but not quite as good as Seattle. The real estate market where I live has been white-hot in the past 6 months. Tons of Californians moving in to work remotely. There are construction cranes all over the place with new offices, apartments, and hotels going up.

I just drove downtown today with my daughter to pick up some college-related computer accessories at the Apple Store and so she could visit her favorite Japanese art store. We walked around downtown Portland and didn't see any of what you describe. There were lots of people out and about and the restaurants and sidewalk dining were packed. I think you watch too much Fox News.

I don't watch any tv.

Me thinks you see what you want to see.

[Ken]

Actually it is the opposite. Portland population grew by 21% from 1990 to 2000, by 10% from 2000 to 2010 and by 13% from 2010 to 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon and real estate prices are going up even faster.

The region has recovered 84,000 jobs since the peak of the pandemic in May 2020 which is about the same rate of growth as the national average and more people continue to move into the area. The current unemployment rate is lower than the national average and about the same as Austin TX but not quite as good as Seattle. The real estate market where I live has been white-hot in the past 6 months. Tons of Californians moving in to work remotely. There are construction cranes all over the place with new offices, apartments, and hotels going up.

I just drove downtown today with my daughter to pick up some college-related computer accessories at the Apple Store and so she could visit her favorite Japanese art store. We walked around downtown Portland and didn't see any of what you describe. There were lots of people out and about and the restaurants and sidewalk dining were packed. I think you watch too much Fox News.

I don't watch any tv.

Me thinks you see what you want to see.

I see an area that is bouncing back rapidly from the pandemic. With a lot more jobs coming than leaving. That is growing too fast frankly judging by how much construction I see around the area and how fast housing prices are rising. It took my daughter about 30 minutes to find a summer job working at the deli counter of the local Safeway at $13.50/hr. which isn't bad for her first summer job. She didn't hear back immediately after applying online so she went down in person with her resume and was hired on the spot.

But you visited here once? So I guess you would know better.

[Josh]

Fisher isn’t in Portland; he’s not even in Oregon.

[Ken]

Fisher isn’t in Portland; he’s not even in Oregon.

We are talking about the Portland metro area which is 2.5 million people compared to the city itself which is more like 650,000. Fisher is 5-10 minutes from Portland and Fisher Investments is something like the 10th largest employer in the Portland metro area. Half the staff commutes across the bridge from Portland. Just like Portlanders commute out to Nike and Intel in Beaverton and vice versa. Half my neighbors here in WA commute to Portland. It's all one large metro economy when it comes to economy, housing, and even politics. The biggest political fights right now in this region have nothing to do with BLM or any of that. They have to do with freeway expansion, new bridges across the Columbia, and expansion of mass transit. And they are regional discussions that have nothing to do with city or even state boundaries.

And I'm not sure why you guys keep bringing up Portland anyway. It isn't really relevant to this thread. You seem to think that Portland is some sort of no-go zone where the religious are persecuted. When it is a pretty normal American city and not much different from the other cities in its size category (Austin, Sacramento, Pittsburgh, Las Vegas, Orlando, etc.)

[Bootstrap]

Are we back to the default political conversation on MN? Can we stop?

Ken, I think you are basically saying that we have no valid concerns and cannot even identify who is Christian or who is a committed Christian and that if our faith is at odds with US law, that means there's something wrong with our faith.

I started this thread precisely because I think our faith is at odds with US law sometimes in ways that can cost us, we are used to being a dominant voice in America via nominal Christians who are politically powerful, and I want us to think about how we build the Kingdom of God under these circumstances. I'm guessing the whole premise of this is nonsense to you, but I think that means you cannot participate in this discussion, you can only distract from it with things you would rather discuss instead.

For instance, when I bring up wedding cake bakers and wedding photographers, you seem to be saying it serves them right if they won't work at gay weddings. Regardless, we have to figure out how we live under the changing circumstances. And our faith sometimes is at odds with U.S. law, that's why Mennonites were jailed for refusing to serve in the army, for instance. Some of their neighbors thought we deserved that if we didn't want to do our part. Mainstream society will often think we deserve what we get if we do not go along.

Similarly, I think that politics has become so dominant and religion so much weaker that people are less and less likely to understand a Christian world view at all, and are more likely to conflate it with political world views.

Regardless, I think our job as Christians is to build the Kingdom of God in a world that looks stranger and stranger to me, serving those around us. I would like to focus on ways to do that. I can't do that in a thread where we have to debate you at the same time.