The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Ken]

So if presidents are representative of people in general (neither better nor worse). And we have had 45 presidents. Then according to your faith, less than 1 in 45 are true Christians and saved? And I expect by extension less than 1 in 45 (or about 2%) of Americans are similarly true Christians and saved?

I don't know the exact numbers, but I do believe that the majority of Americans are not committed disciples of Jesus Christ. Could we please treat that as the premise of this thread? It's hard to discuss how we, as part of that smaller group, should relate to changes in the society around us if we do not start from that premise. If you want to challenge the premise, perhaps in another thread?

I thought this thread was also about the decline of "nominal Christianity" as defined by Russell Moore. How does one distinguish between a nominal Christian and a committed Christian? What criteria do we use? Faith? Works? Both? People here on this forum throw around a variety of terms and often treat them as synonymous: For example here on thread we have discussions about who is:

Christian
Committed disciples of Christ
Saved

Are those terms synonymous? If not, what would a Venn diagram look like that included all three?

[ken_sylvania]

Robert Wilcox? Is that who you're talking about?

Actually that was another neighbor who built a big pool. This is the house I should have linked to. It has been awhile and I had them confused.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1235 ... 0544_zpid/

We had the 2200 sf house down the street that I bought partially finished from the builder and spent a couple months fixing up and cleaning out the scorpions and rattlesnakes before moving in. But it was a neighborhood where some people built some pretty big estates. Haven't been there in 13 years.

So Victor Marx?
If he only works one day a month, who does his podcasts and website updates for him?
Is he the guy pictured on his website, or is that someone else?

[ken_sylvania]

So yes. The gays might be more "stylish" as RZehr puts it. They do run the fashion industry after all as was noted in the barefoot thread. But it is still religion that is actually privileged in this country. In hundreds of ways large and small.

If I owned a business, do you think that there is any chance that it would get any special treatment or special opportunities on a federal contract due to it being owned by a Christian or by a Mennonite?

Do you think there is any chance that a business would get special treatment or special opportunities due to it being owned by a gay or lesbian person?

[Ken]

So yes. The gays might be more "stylish" as RZehr puts it. They do run the fashion industry after all as was noted in the barefoot thread. But it is still religion that is actually privileged in this country. In hundreds of ways large and small.

If I owned a business, do you think that there is any chance that it would get any special treatment or special opportunities on a federal contract due to it being owned by a Christian or by a Mennonite?

Do you think there is any chance that a business would get special treatment or special opportunities due to it being owned by a gay or lesbian person?

You are mixing apples and oranges.

A business is a secular entity formed for the purpose of making profit. Businesses are not Christian or non-Christian. They are not even people. They are inanimate objects or concepts like a house or a car or a contract.

The correct question to ask is whether you as a Christian receive deference and preference in our society based on your religion compared to the privilege afforded to a gay person based on their sexuality. And even that is a hard comparison to make because are are not just defined by a single trait (Christian or LGBT). We are also defined by our sex, our race, our age, our wealth, our ethnicity, our language, our profession, our appearance and hundreds of additional traits.

If I am privileged and advantaged in my interactions with society and with my government is it because I'm Christian? because I'm white? Because I'm middle aged? Because I'm male? Because I'm of normal height/weight and attractiveness? Because I speak articulate unaccented English? Because I'm an employed professional? Because I'm straight? Because I'm married? Because I have children? Because I dress in a mainstream professional manner? Because I'm a homeowner? Because I have good credit? Because I'm a car driver? Because I have no criminal record? Or is it some complicated mix of all of those?

I'm not sure what "special treatment or special opportunities" you think LGBT folks get in this society other than the right to [sometimes] be treated fairly and equally by their government and society.

[ken_sylvania]

So yes. The gays might be more "stylish" as RZehr puts it. They do run the fashion industry after all as was noted in the barefoot thread. But it is still religion that is actually privileged in this country. In hundreds of ways large and small.

If I owned a business, do you think that there is any chance that it would get any special treatment or special opportunities on a federal contract due to it being owned by a Christian or by a Mennonite?

Do you think there is any chance that a business would get special treatment or special opportunities due to it being owned by a gay or lesbian person?

You are mixing apples and oranges.

A business is a secular entity formed for the purpose of making profit. Businesses are not Christian or non-Christian. They are not even people. They are inanimate objects or concepts like a house or a car or a contract.

The correct question to ask is whether you as a Christian receive deference and preference in our society based on your religion compared to the privilege afforded to a gay person based on their sexuality. And even that is a hard comparison to make because are are not just defined by a single trait (Christian or LGBT). We are also defined by our sex, our race, our age, our wealth, our ethnicity, our language, our profession, our appearance and hundreds of additional traits.

If I am privileged and advantaged in my interactions with society and with my government is it because I'm Christian? because I'm white? Because I'm middle aged? Because I'm male? Because I'm of normal height/weight and attractiveness? Because I speak articulate unaccented English? Because I'm an employed professional? Because I'm straight? Because I'm married? Because I have children? Because I dress in a mainstream professional manner? Because I'm a homeowner? Because I have good credit? Because I'm a car driver? Because I have no criminal record? Or is it some complicated mix of all of those?

I'm not sure what "special treatment or special opportunities" you think LGBT folks get in this society other than the right to [sometimes] be treated fairly and equally by their government and society.

So are you answering "No" to both of my questions?

[Ken]

If I owned a business, do you think that there is any chance that it would get any special treatment or special opportunities on a federal contract due to it being owned by a Christian or by a Mennonite?

Do you think there is any chance that a business would get special treatment or special opportunities due to it being owned by a gay or lesbian person?

You are mixing apples and oranges.

A business is a secular entity formed for the purpose of making profit. Businesses are not Christian or non-Christian. They are not even people. They are inanimate objects or concepts like a house or a car or a contract.

The correct question to ask is whether you as a Christian receive deference and preference in our society based on your religion compared to the privilege afforded to a gay person based on their sexuality. And even that is a hard comparison to make because are are not just defined by a single trait (Christian or LGBT). We are also defined by our sex, our race, our age, our wealth, our ethnicity, our language, our profession, our appearance and hundreds of additional traits.

If I am privileged and advantaged in my interactions with society and with my government is it because I'm Christian? because I'm white? Because I'm middle aged? Because I'm male? Because I'm of normal height/weight and attractiveness? Because I speak articulate unaccented English? Because I'm an employed professional? Because I'm straight? Because I'm married? Because I have children? Because I dress in a mainstream professional manner? Because I'm a homeowner? Because I have good credit? Because I'm a car driver? Because I have no criminal record? Or is it some complicated mix of all of those?

I'm not sure what "special treatment or special opportunities" you think LGBT folks get in this society other than the right to [sometimes] be treated fairly and equally by their government and society.

So are you answering "No" to both of my questions?

I'm saying you are missing the point.

But to answer your question, I would say that you as a Christian are afforded more privilege in this society than someone who is openly LGBT.

[ken_sylvania]

You are mixing apples and oranges.

A business is a secular entity formed for the purpose of making profit. Businesses are not Christian or non-Christian. They are not even people. They are inanimate objects or concepts like a house or a car or a contract.

The correct question to ask is whether you as a Christian receive deference and preference in our society based on your religion compared to the privilege afforded to a gay person based on their sexuality. And even that is a hard comparison to make because are are not just defined by a single trait (Christian or LGBT). We are also defined by our sex, our race, our age, our wealth, our ethnicity, our language, our profession, our appearance and hundreds of additional traits.

If I am privileged and advantaged in my interactions with society and with my government is it because I'm Christian? because I'm white? Because I'm middle aged? Because I'm male? Because I'm of normal height/weight and attractiveness? Because I speak articulate unaccented English? Because I'm an employed professional? Because I'm straight? Because I'm married? Because I have children? Because I dress in a mainstream professional manner? Because I'm a homeowner? Because I have good credit? Because I'm a car driver? Because I have no criminal record? Or is it some complicated mix of all of those?

I'm not sure what "special treatment or special opportunities" you think LGBT folks get in this society other than the right to [sometimes] be treated fairly and equally by their government and society.

So are you answering "No" to both of my questions?

I'm saying you are missing the point.

Then why won't you answer the question?

[ken_sylvania]

You are mixing apples and oranges.

A business is a secular entity formed for the purpose of making profit. Businesses are not Christian or non-Christian. They are not even people. They are inanimate objects or concepts like a house or a car or a contract.

The correct question to ask is whether you as a Christian receive deference and preference in our society based on your religion compared to the privilege afforded to a gay person based on their sexuality. And even that is a hard comparison to make because are are not just defined by a single trait (Christian or LGBT). We are also defined by our sex, our race, our age, our wealth, our ethnicity, our language, our profession, our appearance and hundreds of additional traits.

If I am privileged and advantaged in my interactions with society and with my government is it because I'm Christian? because I'm white? Because I'm middle aged? Because I'm male? Because I'm of normal height/weight and attractiveness? Because I speak articulate unaccented English? Because I'm an employed professional? Because I'm straight? Because I'm married? Because I have children? Because I dress in a mainstream professional manner? Because I'm a homeowner? Because I have good credit? Because I'm a car driver? Because I have no criminal record? Or is it some complicated mix of all of those?

I'm not sure what "special treatment or special opportunities" you think LGBT folks get in this society other than the right to [sometimes] be treated fairly and equally by their government and society.

So are you answering "No" to both of my questions?

I'm saying you are missing the point.

But to answer your question, I would say that you as a Christian are afforded more privilege in this society than someone who is openly LGBT.

That is not an answer to my question.

[Soloist]

So if presidents are representative of people in general (neither better nor worse). And we have had 45 presidents. Then according to your faith, less than 1 in 45 are true Christians and saved? And I expect by extension less than 1 in 45 (or about 2%) of Americans are similarly true Christians and saved?

I know I don't see eye to eye with many on this forum. But I have a hard time believing in a loving and just God who is going to burn down and condemn to Hell 98% of those he created in his own image.

Personally I can't see into another person's soul. But I do know that there is no person on earth with whom we could not find some fault with. And there are few who have no redeeming qualities at all. So I am loath to judge who is and isn't a Christian much less who is or isn't saved. And I tend to take people at their word when it comes to matters of faith.

Gen6: 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

All on the earth were killed except those in the ark. Do you agree? How does this line up with your belief?

Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

How does this line up with your belief?
How many do you think would be saved among this godless and wicked people?

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

[Bootstrap]

So if presidents are representative of people in general (neither better nor worse). And we have had 45 presidents. Then according to your faith, less than 1 in 45 are true Christians and saved? And I expect by extension less than 1 in 45 (or about 2%) of Americans are similarly true Christians and saved?

I don't know the exact numbers, but I do believe that the majority of Americans are not committed disciples of Jesus Christ. Could we please treat that as the premise of this thread? It's hard to discuss how we, as part of that smaller group, should relate to changes in the society around us if we do not start from that premise. If you want to challenge the premise, perhaps in another thread?

I thought this thread was also about the decline of "nominal Christianity" as defined by Russell Moore. How does one distinguish between a nominal Christian and a committed Christian?

For one thing, a committed Christian will continue to follow what the Bible teaches even when the people in mainstream society are baffled, disapprove, and cause them grief. In my family and with some of my friends, my position on gay marriage and abortion are both issues for some people. Exactly how we apply these teachings may differ - for instance, Soloist will not get a Covid-19 vaccine because of religious convictions, I would, but I respect his integrity as a Christian.

A committed Christian orders his life around serving others and promoting the Kingdom of God, seeks to really understand the Bible, seeks to walk together with others. God is not some theological abstraction or a political party, God is the King of everything, the core of our being, what we live for. Sometimes you see a committed Christian quit a high paying job to take on a low paying ministry with a lot less job security. Sometimes you see a committed Christian spending lots of money to help others in ways that do not make sense to his extended family.

In Nazi Germany, some committed Christians sought to protect Jews even while the mainstream church went along with the madness. In China, committed Christians risk their lives constantly to build the church. Personally, I don't think that level of persecution is coming any time soon, but a committed Christian counts the cost and is ready to give everything if that's what is called for.