The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Ken]

That is not an answer to my question.

So your question is whether or not a Christian or LGBT owned business would receive special treatment or privilege as a result of being owned by a Christian or LGBT person? With respect to government contracts or otherwise? I think the answer is almost certainly not in most cases, but the answer is more complex than that and a complete answer should explore interactions with both government and society.

If we are talking about the government. Then a Christian-owned or LGBT-owned business like a bookstore or restaurant or building contractor should be treated exactly equally by the government. The 1st Amendment declares that Congress should pass no law respecting an establishment of religion and the 14th Amendment states that no person shall be denied equal protection of the law. This should be true when it comes to taxes, building permits, inspections, licensing, grant programs like Covid PPP business loans, and yes, contracts. To the extent that one type of business owner is being advantaged or disadvantaged due to their identity, it is most likely the result of some government employee illegally tilting the balance in favor of one or the other and basically abusing the authority that we the people have granted them. These people are breaking the law and should be fired, whether or not they are tilting the playing field in favor or against Christians or against LGBT people. Are there examples of specific government entities that tilt the playing field one way or the other? Perhaps. It is a big country and I'm not aware of what every single city or county across the country is doing. I expect there are some examples were Christian-owned businesses are advantage and some where LGBT-owned businesses are advantaged. In my opinion, neither should be the case. But in both cases we are talking about a vanishingly small microscopic fraction of the total business conducted by both Christian-owned and LGBT-owned businesses. In other words it is trivial and mostly performative either way.

If we are talking about wider society. Are there examples where Christian-owned or LGBT-owned businesses are afforded advantages or privileges, or disadvantaged due to the identity of the owner? Of course. When we are talking about things like bank loan officers reviewing business plans, landlords reviewing rental applications, employees seeking employment, businesses seeking business relationships with other businesses as suppliers or customers or partners, and so forth. Then there is going to be a lot of discretion and discrimination because people bring their own prejudices and biases into their business relationships and interactions. In some parts of the country I would expect Christian-owned businesses to have a tremendous advantage (or privilege) over LGBT-owned businesses. In other parts of the country it is likely the reverse. On balance, or on average, across the entire country, I would expect that being a Christian-owned business still confers more advantage or privilege compared to being an LGBT-owned business. Even here in the greater Portland metro are which is pretty liberal and LGBT friendly I see a lot more incidents on the news about LGBG-owned or LGBT-friendly businesses being vandalized and attacked than Christian-owned businesses. This was 2 days ago near my house, for example: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vandals ... 00859.html

[Soloist]

I would expect that being a Christian-owned business still confers more advantage or privilege compared to being an LGBT-owned business. Even here in the greater Portland metro are which is pretty liberal and LGBT friendly I see a lot more incidents on the news about LGBG-owned or LGBT-friendly businesses being vandalized and attacked than Christian-owned businesses. This was 2 days ago near my house, for example: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vandals ... 00859.html

What business in Portland is actually owned by a Christian? Are there any?

[Ken]

Robert Wilcox? Is that who you're talking about?

Actually that was another neighbor who built a big pool. This is the house I should have linked to. It has been awhile and I had them confused.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1235 ... 0544_zpid/

We had the 2200 sf house down the street that I bought partially finished from the builder and spent a couple months fixing up and cleaning out the scorpions and rattlesnakes before moving in. But it was a neighborhood where some people built some pretty big estates. Haven't been there in 13 years.

So Victor Marx?
If he only works one day a month, who does his podcasts and website updates for him?
Is he the guy pictured on his website, or is that someone else?

Yes, that is the guy. I forgot his name. This was over 15 years ago when we were neighbors. About 2005 or 2006. My kids and his kids said he never left the house and basically spent his days playing video games. Back then he was claiming to be a world champion of some form of Cajun martial arts that apparently he invented. I see now he is going in a different direction with all the vet and PTSD stuff. No wait. I see on his web site that he still claims to be a 7th degree black belt in Cajun Karate Keichu https://victormarx.com/the-victor-marx-story/ (scroll down) which isn't actually a real thing but something his dad made up. When I checked up via the county assessors web site I discovered he was paying no property taxes because everything was in the name of his ministry.

[Bootstrap]

I would expect that being a Christian-owned business still confers more advantage or privilege compared to being an LGBT-owned business. Even here in the greater Portland metro are which is pretty liberal and LGBT friendly I see a lot more incidents on the news about LGBG-owned or LGBT-friendly businesses being vandalized and attacked than Christian-owned businesses. This was 2 days ago near my house, for example: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vandals ... 00859.html

What business in Portland is actually owned by a Christian? Are there any?

For this thread, I think the real questions is this: What consequences do we expect a Christian business holder to face if he stands up for his faith? What opportunities does a Christian business holder have to promote the Kingdom of God?

For one thing, I think there may be some wedding photographers and cake bakers who are facing obvious consequences.

[Ken]

I would expect that being a Christian-owned business still confers more advantage or privilege compared to being an LGBT-owned business. Even here in the greater Portland metro are which is pretty liberal and LGBT friendly I see a lot more incidents on the news about LGBG-owned or LGBT-friendly businesses being vandalized and attacked than Christian-owned businesses. This was 2 days ago near my house, for example: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vandals ... 00859.html

What business in Portland is actually owned by a Christian? Are there any?

It is an ordinary city so I'm sure there are thousands. In terms of the cities largest private employers?

I think Providence Hospital network is the largest private employer in Portland and it is Catholic-owned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providenc ... 6_Services

Precision Castparts is a major employer and it was previously owned by big-time supporters of GOP and Christian causes before being sold to Berkshire Hathaway a few years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_Castparts_Corp.

University of Portland is the largest private university and it is owned and operated by the Congregation of the Holy Cross (same as Notre Dame). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Portland

Fisher Investments is a major regional employer that is just down the street from me. The owner Ken Fisher is known locally for contributing to both local Republicans and Christian charities. He was more famous for being a major regional Trump supporter but apparently also supports local churches and missions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_Investments

And there are all the usual corporate employers one finds everywhere. I expect if one digs into who the CEOs are of places like Kroger, B of A, Wal-Mart, Comcast, etc. one will find more self-identified Christians than self-identified LGBT folks.

Were you under the impression that Portland was in any way different from most other US cities where the bulk of big businesses are owned by conservative billionaires and corporations?

[ken_sylvania]

That is not an answer to my question.

So your question is whether or not a Christian or LGBT owned business would receive special treatment or privilege as a result of being owned by a Christian or LGBT person? With respect to government contracts or otherwise? I think the answer is almost certainly not in most cases, but the answer is more complex than that and a complete answer should explore interactions with both government and society.

If we are talking about the government. Then a Christian-owned or LGBT-owned business like a bookstore or restaurant or building contractor should be treated exactly equally by the government. The 1st Amendment declares that Congress should pass no law respecting an establishment of religion and the 14th Amendment states that no person shall be denied equal protection of the law. This should be true when it comes to taxes, building permits, inspections, licensing, grant programs like Covid PPP business loans, and yes, contracts. To the extent that one type of business owner is being advantaged or disadvantaged due to their identity, it is most likely the result of some government employee illegally tilting the balance in favor of one or the other and basically abusing the authority that we the people have granted them. These people are breaking the law and should be fired, whether or not they are tilting the playing field in favor or against Christians or against LGBT people. Are there examples of specific government entities that tilt the playing field one way or the other? Perhaps. It is a big country and I'm not aware of what every single city or county across the country is doing. I expect there are some examples were Christian-owned businesses are advantage and some where LGBT-owned businesses are advantaged. In my opinion, neither should be the case. But in both cases we are talking about a vanishingly small microscopic fraction of the total business conducted by both Christian-owned and LGBT-owned businesses. In other words it is trivial and mostly performative either way.

It has been common for many years for the government contracts to include a requirement for a certain percentage set aside for minority-owned and women-owned businesses. Over the past few years I've been noticing various large contracting firms and especially universities including certified LGBTQ-owned businesses in this privileged group. I think we both know that if Yale University were to issue an invitation to bid that included a requirement that 15% of labor and subcontracts be awarded to Catholic-owned businesses there would be an outcry. Now as Yale is not a government, they ought to have that right, I suppose.

Now, how about we turn our attention to the most populous city in the United States. In the same year as President Biden issued an executive order to state that the Federal Government will not discriminate based on sexual orientation or gender identity, New York City has formalized a policy that will grant LGBTQ-owned businesses "a competitive advantage when bidding for contracts with the city."
https://www.inc.com/tim-crino/lgbtq-bus ... racts.html Would you consider that to be tilting the playing field?

And according to the article,

New York City joins a growing list of American cities--including Los Angeles, Baltimore, St. Louis, Chicago, Orlando, and Nashville--that recognize NGLCC-certified businesses as minority-owned when awarding contracts.

[Ken]

I would expect that being a Christian-owned business still confers more advantage or privilege compared to being an LGBT-owned business. Even here in the greater Portland metro are which is pretty liberal and LGBT friendly I see a lot more incidents on the news about LGBG-owned or LGBT-friendly businesses being vandalized and attacked than Christian-owned businesses. This was 2 days ago near my house, for example: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vandals ... 00859.html

What business in Portland is actually owned by a Christian? Are there any?

For this thread, I think the real questions is this: What consequences do we expect a Christian business holder to face if he stands up for his faith? What opportunities does a Christian business holder have to promote the Kingdom of God?

For one thing, I think there may be some wedding photographers and cake bakers who are facing obvious consequences.

I expect Christian business owners have near infinite opportunities to stand up for their faith and promote the Kingdom of God in their personal lives.

However when they are operating a public business there may be times when they may run afoul of anti-discrimination statutes if they choose to use their personal beliefs to discriminate against others. Just like an LGBT-owned business would be equally in violation of the law if they chose to use their business to discriminate against Christians. The law should protect everyone equally.

[Ken]

That is not an answer to my question.

So your question is whether or not a Christian or LGBT owned business would receive special treatment or privilege as a result of being owned by a Christian or LGBT person? With respect to government contracts or otherwise? I think the answer is almost certainly not in most cases, but the answer is more complex than that and a complete answer should explore interactions with both government and society.

If we are talking about the government. Then a Christian-owned or LGBT-owned business like a bookstore or restaurant or building contractor should be treated exactly equally by the government. The 1st Amendment declares that Congress should pass no law respecting an establishment of religion and the 14th Amendment states that no person shall be denied equal protection of the law. This should be true when it comes to taxes, building permits, inspections, licensing, grant programs like Covid PPP business loans, and yes, contracts. To the extent that one type of business owner is being advantaged or disadvantaged due to their identity, it is most likely the result of some government employee illegally tilting the balance in favor of one or the other and basically abusing the authority that we the people have granted them. These people are breaking the law and should be fired, whether or not they are tilting the playing field in favor or against Christians or against LGBT people. Are there examples of specific government entities that tilt the playing field one way or the other? Perhaps. It is a big country and I'm not aware of what every single city or county across the country is doing. I expect there are some examples were Christian-owned businesses are advantage and some where LGBT-owned businesses are advantaged. In my opinion, neither should be the case. But in both cases we are talking about a vanishingly small microscopic fraction of the total business conducted by both Christian-owned and LGBT-owned businesses. In other words it is trivial and mostly performative either way.

It has been common for many years for the government contracts to include a requirement for a certain percentage set aside for minority-owned and women-owned businesses. Over the past few years I've been noticing various large contracting firms and especially universities including certified LGBTQ-owned businesses in this privileged group. I think we both know that if Yale University were to issue an invitation to bid that included a requirement that 15% of labor and subcontracts be awarded to Catholic-owned businesses there would be an outcry. Now as Yale is not a government, they ought to have that right, I suppose.

Now, how about we turn our attention to the most populous city in the United States. In the same year as President Biden issued an executive order to state that the Federal Government will not discriminate based on sexual orientation or gender identity, New York City has formalized a policy that will grant LGBTQ-owned businesses "a competitive advantage when bidding for contracts with the city."
https://www.inc.com/tim-crino/lgbtq-bus ... racts.html Would you consider that to be tilting the playing field?

And according to the article,

New York City joins a growing list of American cities--including Los Angeles, Baltimore, St. Louis, Chicago, Orlando, and Nashville--that recognize NGLCC-certified businesses as minority-owned when awarding contracts.

Yes I would oppose all of those sorts of contract set-asides or advantages for minority-owed businesses. At the same time, I also expect that by far the majority of the recipients of these sorts of government preferences are also Christians (who happen to be Black and Latino and female Christians) and that LGBT-owned businesses are a small fraction of what we are talking about. And I expect many of them also consider themselves Christians. So I don't see Christians being disadvantaged by these programs. The majority of recipients are probably Christian.

[Soloist]

I would expect that being a Christian-owned business still confers more advantage or privilege compared to being an LGBT-owned business. Even here in the greater Portland metro are which is pretty liberal and LGBT friendly I see a lot more incidents on the news about LGBG-owned or LGBT-friendly businesses being vandalized and attacked than Christian-owned businesses. This was 2 days ago near my house, for example: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vandals ... 00859.html

What business in Portland is actually owned by a Christian? Are there any?

It is an ordinary city so I'm sure there are thousands. In terms of the cities largest private employers?

I think Providence Hospital network is the largest private employer in Portland and it is Catholic-owned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providenc ... 6_Services

Precision Castparts is a major employer and it was previously owned by big-time supporters of GOP and Christian causes before being sold to Berkshire Hathaway a few years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_Castparts_Corp.

University of Portland is the largest private university and it is owned and operated by the Congregation of the Holy Cross (same as Notre Dame). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Portland

Fisher Investments is a major regional employer that is just down the street from me. The owner Ken Fisher is known locally for contributing to both local Republicans and Christian charities. He was more famous for being a major regional Trump supporter but apparently also supports local churches and missions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_Investments

And there are all the usual corporate employers one finds everywhere. I expect if one digs into who the CEOs are of places like Kroger, B of A, Wal-Mart, Comcast, etc. one will find more self-identified Christians than self-identified LGBT folks.

Were you under the impression that Portland was in any way different from most other US cities where the bulk of big businesses are owned by conservative billionaires and corporations?

I was referencing the little guys. I'm assuming these LGBTQ companies you referenced being attacked are not major corporations? I really was pointing out that by in large unless you are a Christian bakery or a book store its not like anyone would know anyway if it was a Christian company. They look and act just like anyone else. the LGBTQ companies are very pro public identity and are very supported by Portlanders. You openly act as a Christian company in Portland, and I mean just simply speaking your beliefs, not even discriminating through sales or anything and you will get reprisals. Chick fila gets it somewhat...

[Ken]

I was referencing the little guys. I'm assuming these LGBTQ companies you referenced being attacked are not major corporations? I really was pointing out that by in large unless you are a Christian bakery or a book store its not like anyone would know anyway if it was a Christian company. They look and act just like anyone else. the LGBTQ companies are very pro public identity and are very supported by Portlanders. You openly act as a Christian company in Portland, and I mean just simply speaking your beliefs, not even discriminating through sales or anything and you will get reprisals. Chick fila gets it somewhat...

Chick fil A is ridiculously popular here. So much so that they are creating traffic headaches and problems for nearby businesses. https://www.columbian.com/news/2021/may ... -location/ and https://www.columbian.com/news/2016/nov ... usinesses/ and I'm not aware of anyone vandalizing their property or doing "reprisals" or anything like that.

A quick internet search tells me that there are 27 different Christian-oriented bookstores in the greater Portland area. I'm not aware that any of them have ever experienced any harassment or vandalism for being Christian, although I don't follow every bit of the news that closely so I can't be certain. Although I would expect that sort of thing to make the news: http://religious-bookstores.find-near-m ... ortland-or

There are also at least 6 Christian-oriented colleges and universities in the area and dozens upon dozens of parochial K-12 schools as well as hundreds of churches.

I think you have a very distorted view of Portland. It is really a very ordinary American city.