The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Ken]

Most abortions are done out of convenience, basically a form of birth control. Improvement in social conditions won’t change that.

This is flat wrong and contradicted by countries with better social conditions like the Netherlands and Switzerland who both have more widespread access to abortion and public funding of abortion yet 3x lower abortion rates than the US.

And you still haven't shown the courage or coherency of thought to tell us exactly where you would draw the line in terms of outlawing abortion.

Life begins at conception. I generally hold the same moral view on abortion in line with Catholic doctrine.

Is that enough courage or coherency for you?

You are still evading the question. The question isn't what your moral views are towards abortion. Plenty of pro-choice people also think that life starts at conception. They just don't believe it is the role of the state to criminalize women for making their own choice in this matter. The question is what you think US law should look like with respect to abortion. Would you criminalize any intentional act of any kind by anyone that threatens or harms any human zygote from the moment of conception onwards? If not, where would you draw the line?

[RZehr]

There seems to be a notion that a minority can control everyone else in a democracy just by being more intense.

Somehow it works that way for the LGBTQ folks. And it was a minority that made both homosexual rights and abortion legal in the US.
But it can’t work that way for the much larger, yet still minority, anti-abortion folks? One of the purported benefits of a Republic is supposed to be minority protection, right?

[Ken]

There seems to be a notion that a minority can control everyone else in a democracy just by being more intense.

Somehow it works that way for the LGBTQ folks. But it can’t for the much larger, yet still minority, anti-abortion folks? One of the purported benefits of a Republic is supposed to be minority protection, right?

How are you defining minority and majority?

LGBT folks are, indeed a minority in the US. But at present about 70% of Americans support same-sex marriage and only 30% oppose it. So LGBT rights are supported in the US by over a 2-1 margin. That is an enormous majority. Those who oppose are the tiny minority. This is from 3 days ago: https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/rec ... riage.aspx

By contrast, a steady majority of Americans also support legal abortion and have at more or less a constant rate for the past 40 years. It isn't even that close. Currently, 59% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, while 39% say it should be illegal in all or most cases: https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/pub ... -abortion/

So at present both gay marriage and legal abortion are supported by solid majorities in this country which is exactly what the laws reflect and what one would expect in a democracy. Curtailing LGBT rights or outlawing abortion would both very much be minority opinions and minority rule if they were to be implemented.

As for "protecting" minority rights? I'm not aware that anyone is required to get gay-married or have an abortion. This isn't 1980s China where abortions were indeed forced. And no one is getting shot-gunned into an unwilling gay marriage. So it would seem to me that in both cases, minority rights are protected.

[RZehr]

There seems to be a notion that a minority can control everyone else in a democracy just by being more intense.

Somehow it works that way for the LGBTQ folks. But it can’t for the much larger, yet still minority, anti-abortion folks? One of the purported benefits of a Republic is supposed to be minority protection, right?

How are you defining minority and majority?

LGBT folks are, indeed a minority in the US. But at present about 70% of Americans support same-sex marriage and only 30% oppose it. So LGBT rights are supported in the US by over a 2-1 margin. That is an enormous majority. Those who oppose are the tiny minority. This is from 3 days ago: https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/rec ... riage.aspx

By contrast, a steady majority of Americans also support legal abortion and have at more or less a constant rate for the past 40 years. It isn't even that close. Currently, 59% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, while 39% say it should be illegal in all or most cases: https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/pub ... -abortion/

So at present both gay marriage and legal abortion are supported by solid majorities in this country which is exactly what the laws reflect and what one would expect in a democracy.

I believe they, and their proponents were in the minority. They wouldn’t have these rights nor the support of society had the courts not overruled the majority of the the citizens. When you have a society such as the US now is, where there is no solid sense of right and wrong, and has rejected Truth, and everything about morality is relative, then you have a majority that is only bounded by the laws of the land. They are asleep at the wheel so to speak, and when they wake up to find what they once thought to be wrong, is now legal, they adjust accordingly. It doesn’t matter if it is immodesty, fornication/homosexuality/adultery/pedophilia/beastialit greed, racism, abortion, or drugs. They just adjust to the new norm. Not all people do, thank God. But a huge amount of society does exactly that. They equate legal to moral. So had these things not become legal, a majority of people would still think them to be wrong.

On your last edited note, what minority right do you think is more powerful in this country today, gay or religious? There is no question that gay rights are much more stylish that religion is. Today Congress voted to make Pulse gay nightclub a national monument.

[temporal1]

Ernie:
I believe they, and their proponents were in the minority.
They wouldn’t have these rights nor the support of society had the courts not overruled the majority of the the citizens.
When you have a society such as the US now is, where there is no solid sense of right and wrong, and has rejected Truth, and everything about morality is relative, then you have a majority that is only bounded by the laws of the land.

They are asleep at the wheel so to speak, and when they wake up to find what they once thought to be wrong, is now legal, they adjust accordingly. It doesn’t matter if it is immodesty, fornication/homosexuality/adultery/pedophilia/beastialit greed, racism, abortion, or drugs. They just adjust to the new norm.

Not all people do, thank God.
But a huge amount of society does exactly that.
They equate legal to moral.
So had these things not become legal, a majority of people would still think them to be wrong.

On your last edited note, what minority right do you think is more powerful in this country today, gay or religious?
There is no question that gay rights are much more stylish that religion is.
Today Congress voted to make Pulse gay nightclub a national monument.

i cannot “like” or “heart” these sad words. but they are correct.

[Ken]

Somehow it works that way for the LGBTQ folks. But it can’t for the much larger, yet still minority, anti-abortion folks? One of the purported benefits of a Republic is supposed to be minority protection, right?

How are you defining minority and majority?

LGBT folks are, indeed a minority in the US. But at present about 70% of Americans support same-sex marriage and only 30% oppose it. So LGBT rights are supported in the US by over a 2-1 margin. That is an enormous majority. Those who oppose are the tiny minority. This is from 3 days ago: https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/rec ... riage.aspx

By contrast, a steady majority of Americans also support legal abortion and have at more or less a constant rate for the past 40 years. It isn't even that close. Currently, 59% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, while 39% say it should be illegal in all or most cases: https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/pub ... -abortion/

So at present both gay marriage and legal abortion are supported by solid majorities in this country which is exactly what the laws reflect and what one would expect in a democracy.

I believe they, and their proponents were in the minority. They wouldn’t have these rights nor the support of society had the courts not overruled the majority of the the citizens. When you have a society such as the US now is, where there is no solid sense of right and wrong, and has rejected Truth, and everything about morality is relative, then you have a majority that is only bounded by the laws of the land. They are asleep at the wheel so to speak, and when they wake up to find what they once thought to be wrong, is now legal, they adjust accordingly. It doesn’t matter if it is immodesty, fornication/homosexuality/adultery/pedophilia/beastialit greed, racism, abortion, or drugs. They just adjust to the new norm. Not all people do, thank God. But a huge amount of society does exactly that. They equate legal to moral. So had these things not become legal, a majority of people would still think them to be wrong.

On your last edited note, what minority right do you think is more powerful in this country today, gay or religious? There is no question that gay rights are much more stylish that religion is. Today Congress voted to make Pulse gay nightclub a national monument.

I would disagree and suggest that religious rights are far more "powerful" and pervasive in this country. And for that matter, Christians are not any sort of minority but an overwhelming majority, especially when it comes to the avenues of power. To cite two examples:

First, there are six practicing Catholics on the Supreme Court, two Jews, and one Episcopalian (Gorsuch) who was raised Catholic and switched to Episcopalian after marriage. That is hardly a minority. By contrast there are no LGBT members on the court and never have been in the entire history of the Supreme Court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... ted_States

Second, there are 86 self-identified Christians in the US Senate, 9 Jews, and one Buddhist, which means that 86% of the Senate is Christian and 95% is Judeo-Christian. Only 4 Senators have no religious affiliation. By contrast there are only two LGBT members of the US Senate (Kristen Sinema and Tammy Baldwin) which is a whopping 2%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... tes_Senate

The Supreme Court and the Senate are the two most powerful institutions in the country outside of the presidency which has been held by a practicing Christian since the beginning of the Republic.

Christians are not a minority in this country and are most certainly not a minority when it comes to the institutions of power. You seem to have a persecution complex that is not warranted by reality.

[temporal1]

Without googling, my impression is that minority populations mentioned above are so small, why would there be expectation of ANY representation in the country’s high courts? - intended to represent majority legal citizens.

Since the 1960’s, the trend has been toward minority, not majority, rule.
This mindset has been normalized, it’s gone beyond common sense. It’s become a false god, among many false gods.

[Ken]

If you googled you would find that about 4.5% of the population identifies as LGBT according to polling. The Census doesn't ask so the numbers are mushy. While that is certainly a tiny minority, it is still unrepresented in every institution of power in this country:

The question raised by RZehr was whether LGBT groups or individuals have their rights privileged over Christians. And he brought up the example of a gay nightclub. So let's use that example for comparison sake since RZehr is the one who brought it up.

The place where most groups are actually privileged or disadvantaged in this country is through the tax code and code of federal regulations because that is the only place where most groups actually even interact with the government.

According to to the National Congressional Study Survey there are an estimated 380,000 churches in the United States. Not a single one of them ever owes any income or property tax. No matter how corrupt or venal their leaders might be. No matter how many pedophiles or child abusers they might shelter and cultivate. They receive a blanket privilege of paying no taxes under the US tax code. No matter how much crime the leaders of a church might commit, the church will never lose it's license because... [checks notes] churches are not licensed in the US. And, for example, most church kitchens are not inspected by health departments unless the church is using the kitchen for commercial purposes or renting it out.

By contrast, gay nightclubs receive none of those privileges. There are only about 800 gay bars in the US compared to 380,000 churches (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 3119894832) and the number is actually declining with increasing acceptance of LGBT folks in the general population because gay folks now feel more free to go to any club, not just a gay one. They pay taxes on every cent they earn as well as property taxes and are subject to every commercial and health regulation. The IRS and health inspectors are generally humorless when violations are found. Gay nightclubs are subject to a wide array of licensing requirements and fees and can be closed down at a moment's notice for hundreds of different potential violations.

You might be offended by comparing churches to gay nightclubs. But from an economic viewpoint what they do is quite similar. Both open the doors to the public who comes and gives them money which they spend on bills, salaries, and other expenses and sometimes profit. Although I expect the number of Christian ministers who own private planes and jets and live in tax-free luxurious mansions is far far greater than the number of gay bar owners who profit to a similar degree from their businesses. https://www.local10.com/news/2014/02/08 ... fla-homes/

I consider myself a Christian. But I don't pretend for a moment that I'm a member of a persecuted minority. Far from it. I recognize that I'm a member of the most privileged class in America.

[ohio jones]

The Supreme Court and the Senate are the two most powerful institutions in the country outside of the presidency which has been held by a practicing Christian since the beginning of the Republic.

Bercot's analysis of George Washington's faith casts some doubt on this, even if the definition of a "practicing Christian" is stretched to the limits of elasticity. Recent examples are no better, not to mention most of the ones in between.

[RZehr]

How are you defining minority and majority?

LGBT folks are, indeed a minority in the US. But at present about 70% of Americans support same-sex marriage and only 30% oppose it. So LGBT rights are supported in the US by over a 2-1 margin. That is an enormous majority. Those who oppose are the tiny minority. This is from 3 days ago: https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/rec ... riage.aspx

By contrast, a steady majority of Americans also support legal abortion and have at more or less a constant rate for the past 40 years. It isn't even that close. Currently, 59% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, while 39% say it should be illegal in all or most cases: https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/pub ... -abortion/

So at present both gay marriage and legal abortion are supported by solid majorities in this country which is exactly what the laws reflect and what one would expect in a democracy.

I believe they, and their proponents were in the minority. They wouldn’t have these rights nor the support of society had the courts not overruled the majority of the the citizens. When you have a society such as the US now is, where there is no solid sense of right and wrong, and has rejected Truth, and everything about morality is relative, then you have a majority that is only bounded by the laws of the land. They are asleep at the wheel so to speak, and when they wake up to find what they once thought to be wrong, is now legal, they adjust accordingly. It doesn’t matter if it is immodesty, fornication/homosexuality/adultery/pedophilia/beastialit greed, racism, abortion, or drugs. They just adjust to the new norm. Not all people do, thank God. But a huge amount of society does exactly that. They equate legal to moral. So had these things not become legal, a majority of people would still think them to be wrong.

On your last edited note, what minority right do you think is more powerful in this country today, gay or religious? There is no question that gay rights are much more stylish that religion is. Today Congress voted to make Pulse gay nightclub a national monument.

I would disagree and suggest that religious rights are far more "powerful" and pervasive in this country. And for that matter, Christians are not any sort of minority but an overwhelming majority, especially when it comes to the avenues of power. To cite two examples:

First, there are six practicing Catholics on the Supreme Court, two Jews, and one Episcopalian (Gorsuch) who was raised Catholic and switched to Episcopalian after marriage. That is hardly a minority. By contrast there are no LGBT members on the court and never have been in the entire history of the Supreme Court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... ted_States

Second, there are 86 self-identified Christians in the US Senate, 9 Jews, and one Buddhist, which means that 86% of the Senate is Christian and 95% is Judeo-Christian. Only 4 Senators have no religious affiliation. By contrast there are only two LGBT members of the US Senate (Kristen Sinema and Tammy Baldwin) which is a whopping 2%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... tes_Senate

The Supreme Court and the Senate are the two most powerful institutions in the country outside of the presidency which has been held by a practicing Christian since the beginning of the Republic.

Christians are not a minority in this country and are most certainly not a minority when it comes to the institutions of power. You seem to have a persecution complex that is not warranted by reality.

I may have a bit of a misplaced persecution complex, I can accept that. But it isn’t completely pulled from thin air, or completely divorced from reason either.

Go back and see what I was commenting on in context, which was the idea that Christians shouldn’t expect certain things because these certain beliefs are not the majority.

You are latching onto one small point that is taking the conversation to a different place. Yes, “Christians” are still in the majority and hold considerable influence in this country. But smart, forward looking people can see what is coming. It’s not imagined.

The real point I’m making is that a belief held by a minority of Christian people, is overruled. While sexual beliefs (that were) held by a minority of society, is promoted. My point is that minority beliefs can win, in spite of their minority status. Yet Christians are told that since our beliefs are in the minority, we should just accept the majorities beliefs because we live in a democracy and that’s how democracies work.
Well, actually that isn’t how we’ve seen these things work. They work forced into society by judges. Not by democracy.