The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Josh]

None of those laws are consistent with each other, none of them contain definitions of "abortion" and none of them even use the term "abortion"

You can hand-wave it away all you want. But the simple fact is that there is no common definition of what is meant by the term "abortion" and no consensus even within the anti-abortion movement as to what forms should be outlawed and what forms should be allowed.

Killing infants for your own convenience is wrong. I’m rather disturbed we can’t agree on that.

We can agree on that. I agree that killing infants for your own convenience is wrong.

But you are dodging the question. What limits would YOU actually place on abortion? Would you outlaw any action that threatens the life of a human zygote starting from the exact moment of conception? Which would make IVF and some forms of birth control tantamount to murder and subject to criminal prosecution? If not, there, then where does your line start?

My point is that there is no commonly accepted bright line that can be drawn around what is considered abortion (or prohibited abortion) and what is not. Even the right to life movement can't find common agreement on that.

One of the signs of a sophist is they always argue edge cases instead of the reason for 99% of abortions, which is basically as a more convenient form of birth control.

You also never come out and actually say abortion is wrong. Do you think killing unborn babies is wrong? Yes or no.

[Ken]

One of the signs of a sophist is they always argue edge cases instead of the reason for 99% of abortions, which is basically as a more convenient form of birth control.

You also never come out and actually say abortion is wrong. Do you think killing unborn babies is wrong? Yes or no.

The "edge cases" as you call them are not edge cases if the law affects them. Especially if we are talking about practices (birth control) used by millions of women. That is not "edge" and that is not 1%, that is mainstream.

My moral position on abortion is more or less the same as that taken by both the Mennonite Church and Baptist Church in the early 1970s. That it is wrong but that there are sometimes extenuating circumstances. And that the issue is complicated enough that I'm unwilling to impose my moral beliefs on others through the force of law in a country that values limited government and individual freedom. And that it is more productive to support rather than punish young mothers and families so that abortion doesn't have to be a choice they need to make. That is the exact same pro-choice position taken by both the Baptists and Mennonites in the 1970s.

At one extreme is the position that any action of any kind that results in the death of a human zygote from the moment of conception onwards is "murder" and should be punishable by law.

At the other extreme is the position that there should be no regulation whatsoever of abortion.

Where do you draw the line between those two extremes? Or do you lack the courage or coherence of thought to tell us?

[ken_sylvania]

One of the signs of a sophist is they always argue edge cases instead of the reason for 99% of abortions, which is basically as a more convenient form of birth control.

You also never come out and actually say abortion is wrong. Do you think killing unborn babies is wrong? Yes or no.

The "edge cases" as you call them are not edge cases if the law affects them. Especially if we are talking about practices (birth control) used by millions of women. That is not "edge" and that is not 1%, that is mainstream.

I would have never guessed that you would admit that contraceptives might actually result in the killing of an unborn baby.

[Ken]

One of the signs of a sophist is they always argue edge cases instead of the reason for 99% of abortions, which is basically as a more convenient form of birth control.

You also never come out and actually say abortion is wrong. Do you think killing unborn babies is wrong? Yes or no.

The "edge cases" as you call them are not edge cases if the law affects them. Especially if we are talking about practices (birth control) used by millions of women. That is not "edge" and that is not 1%, that is mainstream.

I would have never guessed that you would admit that contraceptives might actually result in the killing of an unborn baby.

That isn't my position. I'm characterizing the extreme position held by the Catholic Church and some other right to life groups.

As a biologist I would argue that both the haploid (23 chromosome) sperm and egg and the diploid (46 chromosome) single-cell fertilized egg are living human life forms and that nothing magical happens at the moment of fertilization (either biologically or religiously) to make one a human life and the other not a human life. There is no biblical evidence to support the idea that the soul enters the body upon conception. In fact, to the extent that the scriptures address the topic they suggest that it happens upon first breath or birth.

Humans have two living life stages and life is a constant cycle between them. Some organisms have 3 or 4 different life stages. They are all living. So yes, contraceptives that block a fertilized egg results in the death of a human life in the exact same way that monthly menstruation is the killing of a living human life and ejaculation is the killing of millions of living human lives. But I don't think we should jail people for either one. Nor should we jail or punish people for using birth control. Or even for making the often difficult personal decision to seek an abortion. I would rather see a society where it wasn't necessary because women and families were better supported in terms of health care, education, and living wages. So that voluntary abortions were unnecessary. Why does Switzerland have an abortion rate that is 3x lower than the US when abortion is not only legal in Switzerland, it is paid for by public insurance? It is because they have a far better social safety net and better availability of birth control, family planning, and sex education.

[Josh]

Most abortions are done out of convenience, basically a form of birth control. Improvement in social conditions won’t change that.

[Ken]

Most abortions are done out of convenience, basically a form of birth control. Improvement in social conditions won’t change that.

This is flat wrong and contradicted by countries with better social conditions like the Netherlands and Switzerland who both have more widespread access to abortion and public funding of abortion yet 3x lower abortion rates than the US.

And you still haven't shown the courage or coherency of thought to tell us exactly where you would draw the line in terms of outlawing abortion.

[Bootstrap]

Should abortion be illegal and treated like murder, just like infanticide is?

Yes or no.

Abortion should be illegal, but I doubt we have the votes for it.

Same as murder? That gets complicated. For one thing, what kind of murder? What's the history of this in American law? In ancient Israel, the closest we have is the case where two men are fighting and hit a pregnant woman who miscarries, I think, I don't think that was the same as murder.

In this thread, though, I think the real issue is how we relate to things as a religious minority, not as people who control the government. I am reminded of the early Christians, at a time that infanticide was common and was performed by leaving babies outside to die. Christians picked these children up and adopted them. That's the kind of witness I think we should strive for.

There seems to be a notion that a minority can control everyone else in a democracy just by being more intense. I don't think that's healthy for our Christianity and I don't think it's a great witness - it's not the way that Jesus related to sinners.

[Ken]

Abortion should be illegal, but I doubt we have the votes for it.

Same as murder? That gets complicated. For one thing, what kind of murder? What's the history of this in American law? In ancient Israel, the closest we have is the case where two men are fighting and hit a pregnant woman who miscarries, I think, I don't think that was the same as murder.

In this thread, though, I think the real issue is how we relate to things as a religious minority, not as people who control the government. I am reminded of the early Christians, at a time that infanticide was common and was performed by leaving babies outside to die. Christians picked these children up and adopted them. That's the kind of witness I think we should strive for.

There seems to be a notion that a minority can control everyone else in a democracy just by being more intense. I don't think that's healthy for our Christianity and I don't think it's a great witness - it's not the way that Jesus related to sinners.

Actually in the Old Testament we have dozens of examples of God killing thousands if not millions of of "unborn babies." For example:

God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).

For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16)

There are many other examples.

As for the "right to life" of unborn children? In Numbers 5:11-31 God established a gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit that will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty. Which suggests that only children born in wedlock have a right to life.

There are at least 60 different crimes including murder listed in various parts of the Old Testament that are punishable by death. Abortion is not one of them despite the fact that it was a well-known practice during both Old Testament and New Testament times.

Many forms of abortion are already illegal in the US. This woman was sent to prison for 20 years for having an illegal miscarriage: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... ed-before/ The question for you if you think "abortion should be outlawed" is where would you draw the line differently?

[Josh]

Most abortions are done out of convenience, basically a form of birth control. Improvement in social conditions won’t change that.

This is flat wrong and contradicted by countries with better social conditions like the Netherlands and Switzerland who both have more widespread access to abortion and public funding of abortion yet 3x lower abortion rates than the US.

And you still haven't shown the courage or coherency of thought to tell us exactly where you would draw the line in terms of outlawing abortion.

Life begins at conception. I generally hold the same moral view on abortion in line with Catholic doctrine.

Is that enough courage or coherency for you?

[Josh]

Should abortion be illegal and treated like murder, just like infanticide is?

Yes or no.

Abortion should be illegal, but I doubt we have the votes for it.

Same as murder? That gets complicated. For one thing, what kind of murder? What's the history of this in American law? In ancient Israel, the closest we have is the case where two men are fighting and hit a pregnant woman who miscarries, I think, I don't think that was the same as murder.

In this thread, though, I think the real issue is how we relate to things as a religious minority, not as people who control the government. I am reminded of the early Christians, at a time that infanticide was common and was performed by leaving babies outside to die. Christians picked these children up and adopted them. That's the kind of witness I think we should strive for.

There seems to be a notion that a minority can control everyone else in a democracy just by being more intense. I don't think that's healthy for our Christianity and I don't think it's a great witness - it's not the way that Jesus related to sinners.

My state and many others have the votes for it. The problem is that a very loud minority was able to use the Supreme Court to force all 50 states to allow abortion.

As far as a witness, speaking on behalf of the unborn is important, including to would-be murderers. You won’t meet someone with more regret than people who’ve had abortions. It is a horrible evil that people need saved from.