The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Ken]

Do we need laws on murder?

Laws on murder are not related to Christianity. Every organized society in history from the ancient Egyptians to modern China has had prohibitions against murder of some sort. And the Christian tradition as reflected in the Old Testament was far from the most strict in its prohibitions as the Old Testament is replete with stories of murder and killing.

That is different from pushing to impose strictly Christian teachings into law.

What do you mean by the Christian tradition as reflected in the Old Testament. I wasn't aware that the Old Testament saints were Christians.

What I mean is the modern Christian tradition of looking to the Old Testament for religious, moral, and legal guidance.

For example? The Southern evangelical obsession with building granite monuments to the 10 Commandments and putting them in front of courtrooms, or hanging them in classrooms. And imposing them in law in the form of "blue laws" which are a good example of Christianity imposing a Christian moral code on everyone.

If the 10 Commandments are not part of Christianity, why do we talk about them? And if the Old Testament is not relevant to Christianity, why does it take up 3/4 of our Bibles?

In any event, it wasn't just the Old Testament saints. The Old Testament is filled with stories of murder going all the way back to Genesis. I was just making the point that it is rather odd for Christians to claim that prohibitions on murder are a specifically Christian thing when this bloody history is the religious and cultural tradition that Christianity arose out of and from God's chosen people.

Murder is bad and can't be tolerated in any organized society. That is something that every culture going back to the dawn of civilization has figured out. That isn't some unique insight or teaching of Christianity. In fact, many non-Christian societies like Japan have far less murder than majority Christian societies like the US or Mexico.

[Josh]

Our system of law is mostly based on biblical principles, with a healthy merging in of the religious and moral belief systems of pagans.

Boot, I have a very hard time understanding why you think abortion shouldn't be illegal. In some places, it's legal to murder your own wife. That doesn't mean that that law shouldn't be changed. Murder is still murder regardless of man's opinions about it which often change from time to time and place to place.

[Ken]

Our system of law is mostly based on biblical principles, with a healthy merging in of the religious and moral belief systems of pagans.

Boot, I have a very hard time understanding why you think abortion shouldn't be illegal. In some places, it's legal to murder your own wife. That doesn't mean that that law shouldn't be changed. Murder is still murder regardless of man's opinions about it which often change from time to time and place to place.

We don't even have a functional legal definition of the term "abortion"

Since you clearly think abortion should be made illegal, what exactly is it that you are proposing should be outlawed? Any action of any kind for any reason that results in the death of a human zygote from the moment of conception to the moment of birth?

You will need one of the most powerful and intrusive secret police agencies in human history if you want to pull that off.

[temporal1]

Stat. Ann. §775.021(5) states that anyone who commits a criminal offense and, in the process, causes bodily injury to or the death of an unborn child commits a separate offense if the provision or statute does not otherwise specifically provide a separate offense for such death or injury to an unborn child.
Jan 5, 2018
https://www.ncsl.org › health › fetal...
State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women - National Conference of State Legislatures

Children who are capable of a live birth are protected under a 1929 Act of Parliament which makes it a serious criminal offense to kill an unborn child who is capable of being born alive. The practice is often either ignored or overlooked, but this vitally important statute should not be forgotten.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › ...
Law: protection of the unborn child - PubMed

It will now go to the White House for President Bush's signature. The Unborn Victims of Violence Act, or “Laci and Conner's Law,” would create a separate offense if an individual kills or injures an “unborn child” while committing a federal crime against a pregnant woman.
Mar 25, 2021
https://www.wcpinst.org › source
Unborn Victims of Violence Act Heads to White House - Women's ...

Child destruction is the crime of killing an unborn but viable foetus; that is, a child "capable of being born alive", before it has "a separate existence".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
Child destruction - Wikipedia

It will now go to the White House for President Bush's signature. The Unborn Victims of Violence Act, or “Laci and Conner's Law,” would create a separate offense if an individual kills or injures an “unborn child” while committing a federal crime against a pregnant woman.
Mar 25, 2021
https://www.wcpinst.org › source
Unborn Victims of Violence Act Heads to White House - Women's ...

Imagehttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › ...
Law: protection of the unborn child - PubMed
by J Finch · 1983 —
Thus, it is clear that the law protects the child before birth in the form of an action for damages brought on his/ her ...
Subject to certain exceptions, it is murder by a deliberate act to cause or accelerate the death of a person ...

https://www.robmandell.com/blog/2020/11 ... orn-fetus/

And so much more.
For-profit abortion corporations insist on legal protections and gov funding for their special right to murder that which is human life, at any stage they like. $$$$ Profits blind human reasoning.

[Ken]

None of those laws are consistent with each other, none of them contain definitions of "abortion" and none of them even use the term "abortion"

You can hand-wave it away all you want. But the simple fact is that there is no common definition of what is meant by the term "abortion" and no consensus even within the anti-abortion movement as to what forms should be outlawed and what forms should be allowed.

[Josh]

Our system of law is mostly based on biblical principles, with a healthy merging in of the religious and moral belief systems of pagans.

Boot, I have a very hard time understanding why you think abortion shouldn't be illegal. In some places, it's legal to murder your own wife. That doesn't mean that that law shouldn't be changed. Murder is still murder regardless of man's opinions about it which often change from time to time and place to place.

We don't even have a functional legal definition of the term "abortion"

Since you clearly think abortion should be made illegal, what exactly is it that you are proposing should be outlawed? Any action of any kind for any reason that results in the death of a human zygote from the moment of conception to the moment of birth?

You will need one of the most powerful and intrusive secret police agencies in human history if you want to pull that off.

Should murdering infants right after they’re born be illegal? According to you we’d need a huge police state.

Abortion was illegal in America until Roe v Wade and it did not rely on an intrusive secret police force. Communist countries did have those, abs they also had legal abortion.

[Josh]

None of those laws are consistent with each other, none of them contain definitions of "abortion" and none of them even use the term "abortion"

You can hand-wave it away all you want. But the simple fact is that there is no common definition of what is meant by the term "abortion" and no consensus even within the anti-abortion movement as to what forms should be outlawed and what forms should be allowed.

Killing infants for your own convenience is wrong. I’m rather disturbed we can’t agree on that.

[Ken]

None of those laws are consistent with each other, none of them contain definitions of "abortion" and none of them even use the term "abortion"

You can hand-wave it away all you want. But the simple fact is that there is no common definition of what is meant by the term "abortion" and no consensus even within the anti-abortion movement as to what forms should be outlawed and what forms should be allowed.

Killing infants for your own convenience is wrong. I’m rather disturbed we can’t agree on that.

We can agree on that. I agree that killing infants for your own convenience is wrong.

But you are dodging the question. What limits would YOU actually place on abortion? Would you outlaw any action that threatens the life of a human zygote starting from the exact moment of conception? Which would make IVF and some forms of birth control tantamount to murder and subject to criminal prosecution? If not, there, then where does your line start?

My point is that there is no commonly accepted bright line that can be drawn around what is considered abortion (or prohibited abortion) and what is not. Even the right to life movement can't find common agreement on that.

[Bootstrap]

Our system of law is mostly based on biblical principles, with a healthy merging in of the religious and moral belief systems of pagans.

Boot, I have a very hard time understanding why you think abortion shouldn't be illegal.

Josh, I have a very hard time understanding why you claim I think that. Could you go back and read what I wrote? It might really help if you quote what you are responding to and take the time to read what I said.

[Josh]

Our system of law is mostly based on biblical principles, with a healthy merging in of the religious and moral belief systems of pagans.

Boot, I have a very hard time understanding why you think abortion shouldn't be illegal.

Josh, I have a very hard time understanding why you claim I think that. Could you go back and read what I wrote? It might really help if you quote what you are responding to and take the time to read what I said.

Let’s try it again then. Maybe I misunderstood you.

Should abortion be illegal and treated like murder, just like infanticide is?

Yes or no.