The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Ken]

And if your faith compels you to "preach to the lost" or advocate for conservative Christian-centric laws and policies then you should expect and not be surprised when there is pushback from those who do not agree. That is how democracy works.

I have no interest in making my religion a state religion. I am 100% behind the separation of Church and state. I don't want my Church imposing on the state because I don't want the state imposing on my religion.

And yes, I expect people will disagree with me if I share my faith- but I don't think it reasonable to accuse me of "hate speech" for it.

Do I hate Hindu's if I believe they're worshiping demonic Gods? Is it Muslim-bashing or Moromon-bashing to believe they're following false prophets? Am I hating divorcees by believing they are sinning?

I don't know. Turn the question around. Would you accuse someone of hating Christianity or Christians if they loudly accused Christians of those same exact things? (sinning, doing the work of the devil, following false prophets, doomed to Hell, being immoral, living a life of sin, in need of intervention or correction, etc. etc.) and then advocated for laws that restricted Christianity?

[Outsider]

I don't know. Turn the question around. Would you accuse someone of hating Christianity or Christians if they loudly accused Christians of those same exact things? (sinning, doing the work of the devil, following false prophets, doomed to Hell, being immoral, living a life of sin, in need of intervention or correction, etc. etc.)

Islam teaches exactly this. That scripture has been corrupted, etc. I don't get the feeling that most Muslims hate me. The same with the others. They all have outreach ministries. They're all trying to "save" the other. So what?

and then advocated for laws that restricted Christianity?

You're tilting at a strawman here, if you're accusing me of this. I don't want my religion encoded into the laws of the land.

1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters.

Like Jefferson, I merely want the state to prevent others from causing me and mind bodily harm, protect our property rights, our intellectual freedom, and our freedom of conscience. No-one is talking about establishing a theocracy.

[Josh]

Preach all you want about marriage within your own church or congregation and no one will notice or care. No one anywhere cares what the Amish position on marriage is, for example. But lobby for a state law that prohibits gay marriage for everyone and expect to get political pushback and be labeled a bigot.

I agree with the last sentence in the above paragraph. But aren't we called to preach to the lost, not just the choir?

Absolutely - but is lobbying for state laws the best way to do that? If so, do we also need laws on greed, lust, and not serving in the military?

Do we need laws on murder?

[Bootstrap]

Absolutely - but is lobbying for state laws the best way to do that? If so, do we also need laws on greed, lust, and not serving in the military?

Do we need laws on murder?

Yes, and on abortion and on loving your military enemy. Killing is bad.

For murder, this is practical, we contribute our morality to the shared morality of the democratic society around us and we manage to get laws passed. For abortion, we have had a lot less success. For not killing your military enemy, we are completely out of step with the society around us.

[Ken]

I agree with the last sentence in the above paragraph. But aren't we called to preach to the lost, not just the choir?

Absolutely - but is lobbying for state laws the best way to do that? If so, do we also need laws on greed, lust, and not serving in the military?

Do we need laws on murder?

Laws on murder are not related to Christianity. Every organized society in history from the ancient Egyptians to modern China has had prohibitions against murder of some sort. And the Christian tradition as reflected in the Old Testament was far from the most strict in its prohibitions as the Old Testament is replete with stories of murder and killing.

That is different from pushing to impose strictly Christian teachings into law.

[temporal1]

Morality and crimes are not always unique and confined to Christians, for instance, sodomy is widely disapproved and/or illegal, across the board. All continents/cultures, with few exceptions.

But Christians are SPECIALLY criticized/hated for any attempt to interfere or resist; presently to the point of insistence to support, embrace, celebrate it.

Not just regarding adults. That’s passé.
Public schools and libraries are now flooded with every sort of promotion imaginable directed to everyone’s children.

Ask me how I know.

.. For not killing your military enemy, we are completely out of step with the society around us.

President Trump did well. Against dark, scary predictions.

[ohio jones]

Do we need laws on murder?

I certainly hope *we* do not need laws on murder. Does our society need laws on murder? It's a good thing, certainly, and fits within the Romans 13 concept of law and order. But *we* should be more concerned about making disciples who not only do not murder, but who embrace the Matthew 5 concept of rejecting anger and insults, and who are quick to seek reconciliation.

[Josh]

Absolutely - but is lobbying for state laws the best way to do that? If so, do we also need laws on greed, lust, and not serving in the military?

Do we need laws on murder?

Yes, and on abortion and on loving your military enemy. Killing is bad.

For murder, this is practical, we contribute our morality to the shared morality of the democratic society around us and we manage to get laws passed. For abortion, we have had a lot less success. For not killing your military enemy, we are completely out of step with the society around us.

Aren’t abortion and murder the same thing?

[ken_sylvania]

Absolutely - but is lobbying for state laws the best way to do that? If so, do we also need laws on greed, lust, and not serving in the military?

Do we need laws on murder?

Laws on murder are not related to Christianity. Every organized society in history from the ancient Egyptians to modern China has had prohibitions against murder of some sort. And the Christian tradition as reflected in the Old Testament was far from the most strict in its prohibitions as the Old Testament is replete with stories of murder and killing.

That is different from pushing to impose strictly Christian teachings into law.

What do you mean by the Christian tradition as reflected in the Old Testament. I wasn't aware that the Old Testament saints were Christians.

[Bootstrap]

Do we need laws on murder?

Yes, and on abortion and on loving your military enemy. Killing is bad.

For murder, this is practical, we contribute our morality to the shared morality of the democratic society around us and we manage to get laws passed. For abortion, we have had a lot less success. For not killing your military enemy, we are completely out of step with the society around us.

Aren’t abortion and murder the same thing?

Not under American law, and they never have been. And that's the point. Secular law is not God's law. In a democracy, we can sometimes influence secular law to the extent that enough people agree with us.

If we are outraged that American law is not the same as the Kingdom of God, Two Kingdom theology is relevant.